Author Topic: Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and fac  (Read 11416 times)

Menethil

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Summary:   Use of Rumour and personal information on irc, in forums, ingame and other places like skype and facebook
Violation:   OOC contract
World:   East-Continent
Complainer:   Jason Zammit
About:   Alexandros Stavrou

Full Complaint Text:

To sum it up I wasnt really planning on even opening this up in spite of the overwhelming evidence just on the forum against the player.  However, due to a no remorse an unapologetic nature of this person who says things all over the place and then simply goes 'ok I will stop now' without even apologising to the person he does stuff to.  A good example was after I already quit he immediately began with the sore loser rage quitter immediately.  When he realises it not he simply says I take back what I said.

On the situation at hand.  He filed a complaint against myself and Deytheur ruler of Eponllyn to the Magistrates about us supposedly dating and that is somehow illegal.  Obviously this was wrong to start with.  However things went to far when he put this information in the forum and started to use it in character and telling as much people he could about it to gain more support for Perdan and less support for Caligus.

I've always been the target of normal various insults on irc and such which is completely fine but use of whatever my personal life is is a major step too far and this caused me to hate battlemaster.  I dont wish to see this happen to another player and the only way I see anything changing is if an unapologetic player is punished for his actions.  This was a case of winning was the only option and he would do anything to achieve that.

As for evidence there is various forum posts in the Perdan vs Caligus + friends thread to be the foremost one.  Also with various irc users and other people in character namely Autrey Bendix.  Im not a person who seeks revenge on another player if that was the case I would have opening this a month ago.  Hes had ample time to apologise to me for his actons and he simply hasnt.

Anaris

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I have moved this topic here from the Questions & Answers sub-forum, where Menethil had to post it, as regular Magistrate cases can only be filed from within the game (and he has already deleted his account).
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Atanamir

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So is this now a regular Magistrate case?
Are now the rules of Battlemaster being ridiculed for someone who quit?

Seriously, this goes too far, and honestly, I will not defend against someone who isn't even a player of BM anymore.

That is against my rights as player.

Anaris

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If he had filed this five seconds before he quit, it would have been posted in the normal manner.

I do not see a problem with it being filed after he quit, since the purpose of a Magistrates case of this nature is not to fix the situation for Menethil, but to make a final determination as to whether what you have done was against the spirit of the Social Contract, and if so, deliver a punishment deemed appropriate to deter you from doing such things in the future.

Don't give me BS about your rights as a player when you felt absolutely no compunction about trampling all over Jason's rights just because he happened to be playing the rule of a realm that your character's realm was at war with.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Geronus

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Ummm can I get some more context? And some more specifics? More everything really.

Anaris

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You should read this post and the several related posts that follow. They give a general outline of the situation.

I will try and put together a more comprehensive account of my experience of this whole fiasco later today.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Atanamir

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Very well. Then get ready to ready to read a lot. And by that I mean a LOT.
With this you are ready to harm at least one more RL situation more but this is what you wanted. Justice.

Now to the complaint text.

On the situation at hand.  He filed a complaint against myself and Deytheur ruler of Eponllyn to the Magistrates about us supposedly dating and that is somehow illegal.

First I filed a Titan report, not a Magistrates complaint. I had asked Anaris about this earlier. I filed a complaint about you and Deytheur living together and being closer than most other BM players to each other. By this I don't mean your relationsship, but the geographical closeness, if you want to say it so. Living in same room, access to each other's accounts. This for two rulers on same continent, gangbanging on one realm - everyone would have said this could be fishy. Of course I mentioned the relationsship in my complaint, but it was more an add on to explain the background of why I suspect you and file you as possible multicheaters. But the real reason was to see if you two arrange things without sending messages between Dobromir and Siana etc.

Here is what I got from the Titan (whoever it was), he also didn't understand it first, that I was not interested in your relationsship but in the fact that you live together.
I explained it to him again.

Quote
Regarding the case of "Multicheating / Violation of SC", there is no evidence of multi-cheating in this case. (We have noticed the link between these accounts, and have already investigated it.)If I am understanding this complaint correctly, you are claiming that these two players aren't playing fair because you think they are having an RL relationship. And you want the Titans to take action against him/them because they didn't tell you about it?Personal and private relationships between players are personal and private. If a player wishes to keep their relationships private, then I don't see what business it is of ours. Players are not required to provide details of their private relationships with other players. Please take a few minutes to sit back and think about this complaint. What exactly is it that you are complaining about? Please quote the specific part of the Social Contract that you think is being violated, and what the defendant has done to violate that part of the Social Contract.

Response sent 2013-05-20 19:09:01:

Dear Titan(s),thank your for quick reply.The specific part of the SC is "We expect you to play the game as you would play a board game with good friends".As I said, I don't care if they are together, I feel this actually a cool thing for BM. However, their positions as rulers on the same continent bring up a questionable situation and IG decisions have been very weird, not only for me, but also for others.Also if the realms coordinate attacks OOC (in the same room), everyone else does not play on the same "board of game".Further, I don't know if you checked but have there been bilateral messages sent between the accounts over the last four months in a high fashion? Or has there been no IC communication at all when only the two parties were involved?Summerizing, if they are not playing on the same board, that is operating ingame, while both realms war together, then that is not "a game with good friends". That is the complaint. And it is actually filed against the player of Dobromir, since he is the active player of the two who acts on IRC and ingame most, having also shown to know what was going on in the other realm.The lying in my face might be protecting the privacy (although he told others) and that is ok but the OOC harassment and insulting is also no acceptable thing. However, I could even overlook this insulting, but I can't overlook if he OOC cheats as some players suspect. That's why I filed this complaint so we have a decision by an independent court on this. :)I hope I explained it now more clear. :)Thank you!Alexandros

A little bit later the complaint was rejected and I abided by it.

Now, the big question? How did I know this at all? Well, no worries Dobromir, it was no Developer who told me it.
It was my General in Perdan on irc, Ays, also called Susan Hutchinson who told me your "secret".
For the rest, Ays and Dobromir work IRL together, via the net, but they work together.
Now why would Susan do that? To harm you? No, we both know that Susan is not such a person.

Susan did it because of your and Deytheur's constant harassment of me in IRC in the first month of war.
You were treating me like [email protected]#$ in Perdan and East-Island channel, and yes we had to ban you from IRC, because you kept coming back, although I had asked you many many times politely about it to stop.
Yes, unlike you think, I never filed the report the day you declared war to Perdan.
I filed it a lot later, one month later after long discussions with Ays where all this would end. And I told her this would likely end in a huge BM drama, that's why I as well didn't want to file it first.
See, I had no real need to get you both punished for possible powergaming or multicheating, since Perdan was anyway on advantage against your realms. I felt this would be solved ICly anyway.
You try to insunuate that I did this for IC benefit, but there wasn't any. I did it because you were attacking me OOCly and yes, as player, I felt harassed.

As you harassed also the Titans, when you found out that you got reported.
But it was no Titan who told your secret, it was another player, which you had told so.
You attack others for your own mistakes?
If you want to keep your private life, fine, do it, but don't complain when people find out due to your own misbehaviour and leaking.
And again, I don't care at all about the relationship. You two could be just normal roommates and I would file it too if I feel that you two could do sth not according to the rules.

Now you talk about Autrey (allied ruler to Dobromir and Deytheur and third realm that gangbangs Perdan)? Well, yes that was my only mistake.
Autrey and I had a private convo and she told me that Perdan was unnormal with that recruiting we do.
She said that with a kind of tone like we would cheat in Perdan, so I told in her return "you should check first in your own team".
Then conversation went on and i said that the accounts are linked but they are clear. Surprisingly even Autrey said that during Ibladesh war she felt that deytheur was lot too good informed of Caligus movement than she should. However I told her to handle this as she wanted and she said she would do a mathematically rnadom choice and then keep playing on. We both agreed this was the best way to handle that info. See, all your secretkeeping had to put other players to always watch their words carefully and then even do mathematically random choices to make the own conscience free of doubt of doing the right thing by dealing with your realms.

Besides this I had spoken about it with Fleugs since he had made many times OOC cheating accusations against you on IRC and I wanted to know the truth behind this was.
This was before I filed the report so that i could provide maximum evidence against you.

And I spoke to it with Velax who I wanted to give me a part of admin team advice on how to handle this.
And he was the one who went to the Forum about it and not me.
See, I was so afraid to report you, because you had harassed me so much on IRC that I even needed a second opinion for something of course had to be reported.

So I can't think of any other relevant thing, but maybe it will come when certain people will fall on me now.
Not only you Dobromir has made its enemies over the last years, but at least I have honestly earned 18 trust medals.
And I appear to be funny a bit too sometimes. :P

Edited: some spelling etc mistakes, I hope I found them all :/
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 05:44:46 PM by Atanamir »

Velax

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It does need to be pointed out that it was me, not Atanamir, that brought this issue to the forums. I had no knowledge of any previous "harassment" or "rumour-spreading", nor intent to propagate such. My concern was with the fairness implications of two people in a close relationship (of any sort) who live together and are the rulers of two different realms on the same island.

Geronus

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It does need to be pointed out that it was me, not Atanamir, that brought this issue to the forums. I had no knowledge of any previous "harassment" or "rumour-spreading", nor intent to propagate such. My concern was with the fairness implications of two people in a close relationship (of any sort) who live together and are the rulers of two different realms on the same island.

I did notice that that didn't stop him from immediately taking the opportunity to make his insinuations publicly, however.

Menethil

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It does need to be pointed out that it was me, not Atanamir, that brought this issue to the forums. I had no knowledge of any previous "harassment" or "rumour-spreading", nor intent to propagate such. My concern was with the fairness implications of two people in a close relationship (of any sort) who live together and are the rulers of two different realms on the same island.

You perhaps mentioned it first but it was him that demanded an explanation and kept the subject going on in the forum as long as possible.  Here is no other than 5 posts about him forcing the thread to basically be locked to drop the subject

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4182.105.html

Furthermore even if he was told by Ays.  It was Atanamir's decision to make the whole community know and find out about it.  He by his own admittance did tell Armonia's ruler about it all so it shows clear intent to use this personal information for his own benefit.  This is a horrid display about trying to throw multiple people under the bus.  Furthermore, such information should not even be discussed with other players for advice especially players who dont even like me in the first place.  The only reason this happened was of personal interests in a game.  It simply did not matter how much harm is cause as long as victory is acheived.

Chaotrance13

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Susan did it because of your and Deytheur's constant harassment of me in IRC in the first month of war.
You were treating me like [email protected]#$ in Perdan and East-Island channel, and yes we had to ban you from IRC, because you kept coming back, although I had asked you many many times politely about it to stop.
Yes, unlike you think, I never filed the report the day you declared war to Perdan.
I filed it a lot later, one month later after long discussions with Ays where all this would end. And I told her this would likely end in a huge BM drama, that's why I as well didn't want to file it first.
See, I had no real need to get you both punished for possible powergaming or multicheating, since Perdan was anyway on advantage against your realms. I felt this would be solved ICly anyway.
You try to insunuate that I did this for IC benefit, but there wasn't any. I did it because you were attacking me OOCly and yes, as player, I felt harassed.

Did you even consider the use of the /ignore command on IRC as well, as well as the Ignore function in-game? Or maybe not letting the bans expire on IRC, making them permanent? Because to me, filing reports about their relationship because they weren't nice to you on IRC is first off childish and secondly it reeks of using the Titans as a weapon against players because of other reasons. You yourself admit you had doubts and didn't really want to be filing reports - so why do it? In your words, because you were being harassed. If you were being harassed on IRC you should have kept logs and come to the Magistrates.

Quote
As you harassed also the Titans, when you found out that you got reported.
But it was no Titan who told your secret, it was another player, which you had told so.
You attack others for your own mistakes?
If you want to keep your private life, fine, do it, but don't complain when people find out due to your own misbehaviour and leaking.
And again, I don't care at all about the relationship. You two could be just normal roommates and I would file it too if I feel that you two could do sth not according to the rules.

If he harassed the Titans as you allege, they would deal with it themselves, they do not need you yelling and screaming in their corner. I'm thinking that kind of thing would lead to them referring to Tom to have him bolted or removed from positions as harassing the game's volunteers is seen very, very poorly.

Quote
Besides this I had spoken about it with Fleugs since he had made many times OOC cheating accusations against you on IRC and I wanted to know the truth behind this was.
This was before I filed the report so that i could provide maximum evidence against you.

Are there IRC logs of these incidents? Because this sounds like a breach of the Social Contract as well (namely making accusations without proof - especially when the Titans then exonerate the pair of any multi-account accusations). For that matter, Fleugs should have brought it to the Titans or Magistrates instead of going around spouting off.

Menethil

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The truth about the whole irc matter is he was blantently accusing me for OOC conspiracies against him and cheating.  Eventually i got tired of it and yes I insulted him.  He insulted me back just as much as I insulted him however.  In the end I actually apologised to him he did not.  Im certainly not whining over an irc arguing where there were insults thrown on both sides.  There were many people there for it also so if arguing on irc is an offense we are both guilty of that.

Chaotrance13

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The truth about the whole irc matter is he was blantently accusing me for OOC conspiracies against him and cheating.  Eventually i got tired of it and yes I insulted him.  He insulted me back just as much as I insulted him however.  In the end I actually apologised to him he did not.  Im certainly not whining over an irc arguing where there were insults thrown on both sides.  There were many people there for it also so if arguing on irc is an offense we are both guilty of that.

Arguing over IRC isn't an issue, in fact that's just normal discourse and therefore not an offence. Accusations of cheating however is an issue. But that's a tangent either way and if there were evidence it would need a separate case, so it's neither here nor there.

Menethil

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Arguing over IRC isn't an issue, in fact that's just normal discourse and therefore not an offence. Accusations of cheating however is an issue. But that's a tangent either way and if there were evidence it would need a separate case, so it's neither here nor there.

Im not concerned about it Fleugs used to blame me for that all the time.  You cant take those things too seriously its not an issue for me personally.

Lavigna

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Pff Atanamir was also accused for cheating and for weird new players in Perdan that all move efficiently and bla bla bla, some did troll him just to piss him off, some may also believe it..

This isn't the matter here.

This is about an ooc harass concerning a players personal life. Apparently Atannamir felt that an ooc relationship (of whatever form) changed their in game actions and their in game attitude.
Sure you can call childish the fact he brought it to the Titans, he felt like doing so and he did.

But Jason also says that many players told him he discussed it with them as well oocly and that is not acceptable. The question is can those players also bring evidence for that in the forum?Because mostly that is the real case.

OOC insults between those two has taken place on irc and none of them deny it, but  oocly discussing things for which you shouldn't is a totally different matter.
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