Author Topic: Strategic secession?  (Read 13830 times)

Geronus

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Strategic secession?
« Topic Start: July 10, 2013, 02:02:40 PM »
Luria Nova landed troops in Donghai and kicked butt, and have either begun a takeover, or put the region into flames or both.  If I was a betting person they intend to form a colony with the stabilizing effect of a certain priest/diplomat.

Except that that would be a strategic secession, I think.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 04:16:09 AM by Velax »

Anaris

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Except that that would be a strategic secession, I think.

Well, now, that's an interesting question.

If a realm were to attempt to create a colony right inside another realm that they are at war with, out of regions that are clearly too far away from their own capital not to revolt almost immediately, should that be considered a strategic secession? It's not like there's anything else they could do with those regions...

(Note: This is actually nothing like what LN wants to do with those regions, but I encourage the rumours that it is! ;D )
Timothy Collett

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vonGenf

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If a realm were to attempt to create a colony right inside another realm that they are at war with, out of regions that are clearly too far away from their own capital not to revolt almost immediately, should that be considered a strategic secession? It's not like there's anything else they could do with those regions...

If it's created out of land that they have taken within that same war, I wouldn't call it a strategic secession. Creating puppet states (marches would be a medieval appropriate term) in the wake of your army's passage is a legitimate war tactic.

If it's created out of lands that were held by the parent realm in peace time, then it could be a strategic secession.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Anaris

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If it's created out of land that they have taken within that same war, I wouldn't call it a strategic secession. Creating puppet states (marches would be a medieval appropriate term) in the wake of your army's passage is a legitimate war tactic.

If it's created out of lands that were held by the parent realm in peace time, then it could be a strategic secession.

Well, part of the point here is the "too far away from their own capital not to revolt almost immediately", I think...
Timothy Collett

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vonGenf

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Well, part of the point here is the "too far away from their own capital not to revolt almost immediately", I think...

Secessions, as a rule, are allowed. If you intention is to create a new realm, then secession is the way to go.

A strategic secession refers to an event where it is not the intention of the characters to create two separate realms, but the players feel they have to do so in order to have two recruitment points.

If the seceded lands are too far to be held by the parent realm, then it becomes impossible to argue that the parent realm would have preferred to remain a single realm but split only in order to gain an addition recruitment point. If they had not split, then they would not have held to the lands they just conquered, rendering the conquest moot.
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Arrakis

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In the event that Lurians would want such a colony such a secession would only be used because the game currently doesn't have the colony takeover in place. Were it not so, colony takeover would be used. Therefore, I don't think that it should be classified as a strategic secession when the game doesn't offer any other alternatives to make a new realm.
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Indirik

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Well, now, that's an interesting question.

If a realm were to attempt to create a colony right inside another realm that they are at war with, out of regions that are clearly too far away from their own capital not to revolt almost immediately, should that be considered a strategic secession? It's not like there's anything else they could do with those regions...
In the past, we would have just told them to run a CTO. CTOs have never been considered "strategic". Probably because of the difficulty of actually completing a CTO, as well as the state in which the TO leaves the fledgling realm. A secession, however, instantly gives you a functional realm in much better condition.

But now you can't do a CTO.

But you *can* run a normal TO a region on the opposite side of the map, which you never cold do before....

It really is an interesting question. Can you run a TO at that distance, and then hold the region long enough to appoint a lord, make the duchy, and have the duke secede fast enough that the region is still in good enough condition to not instantly revolt, even when you factor in the damage a secession causes?
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Geronus

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I don't know, it certainly sounds like a move to gain strategic advantage to me. There's really no other reason for doing it. You do it so:

1) You can hold onto the city.

2) You get a base of operations that allows recruiting that's not 800 miles from Luria for further actions against Morek.

Those are purely strategic considerations for the express purpose of gaining an advantage during a war. It would be one thing if they held it for the duration of the conflict and then later seceded it to create a new realm. But to do it right away in the middle of the war, I don't know. Seems like the primary practical result of that will be to give Luria a huge strategic advantage via secession.

Gustav Kuriga

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I don't know, it certainly sounds like a move to gain strategic advantage to me. There's really no other reason for doing it. You do it so:

1) You can hold onto the city.

2) You get a base of operations that allows recruiting that's not 800 miles from Luria for further actions against Morek.

Those are purely strategic considerations for the express purpose of gaining an advantage during a war. It would be one thing if they held it for the duration of the conflict and then later seceded it to create a new realm. But to do it right away in the middle of the war, I don't know. Seems like the primary practical result of that will be to give Luria a huge strategic advantage via secession.

And a colony takeover (if that were actually coded currently) would be different how?

dustole

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And a colony takeover (if that were actually coded currently) would be different how?

Colony take overs were much much harder to do
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Anaris

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I don't know, it certainly sounds like a move to gain strategic advantage to me. There's really no other reason for doing it. You do it so:

1) You can hold onto the city.

2) You get a base of operations that allows recruiting that's not 800 miles from Luria for further actions against Morek.

Those are purely strategic considerations for the express purpose of gaining an advantage during a war. It would be one thing if they held it for the duration of the conflict and then later seceded it to create a new realm. But to do it right away in the middle of the war, I don't know. Seems like the primary practical result of that will be to give Luria a huge strategic advantage via secession.

There's a big difference between seceding half your contiguous realm to gain a second recruiting center on the other end of it—or moving the capital so that your recruiting center is there—and carving out a forward base in enemy territory, a long way from home.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Anaris

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Colony take overs were much much harder to do

More difficult than this?

Can you run a TO at that distance, and then hold the region long enough to appoint a lord, make the duchy, and have the duke secede fast enough that the region is still in good enough condition to not instantly revolt, even when you factor in the damage a secession causes?
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Geronus

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There's a big difference between seceding half your contiguous realm to gain a second recruiting center on the other end of it—or moving the capital so that your recruiting center is there—and carving out a forward base in enemy territory, a long way from home.

Well yeah, if anything it's even worse. There are mechanics that make it virtually impossible to wage war at great distances in BM. Tom has repeatedly said that this has been done on purpose, and various suggestions to make it easier to wage war on the other side of the island (cash bonds in allied cities, recruit anywhere in your realm) have been shot down more than once based on this exact justification. Carving out a forward base a long way from home to make it possible to wage war at a long distance seems exactly like the sort of meta-game shenanigan that the strategic capital move rule is aimed at preventing in the first place.

Anaris

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Well yeah, if anything it's even worse. There are mechanics that make it virtually impossible to wage war at great distances in BM. Tom has repeatedly said that this has been done on purpose, and various suggestions to make it easier to wage war on the other side of the island (cash bonds in allied cities, recruit anywhere in your realm) have been shot down more than once based on this exact justification. Carving out a forward base a long way from home to make it possible to wage war at a long distance seems exactly like the sort of meta-game shenanigan that the strategic capital move rule is aimed at preventing in the first place.

It sounds like, from what you're saying, it would be worse if they didn't secede the city, because then they'd all be able to cash bonds there to pay their men and repair equipment. If they did secede, only those who joined the new realm would be able to cash bonds, and though they would be able to recruit, the only troops they'd have available would be those in the city and whatever small number of regions they had been able to conquer around the city.

Personally, I think this type of play, enabled by sea travel, is different enough than what has gone before that we can't entirely apply the existing rules to it.

Finally, I would note that based on some dev discussion a while back, Tom may be softening slightly on the "no long-distance war" rule, at least under limited circumstances. I just haven't had time to implement the changes he has approved along that line yet.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

vonGenf

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Carving out a forward base a long way from home to make it possible to wage war at a long distance seems exactly like the sort of meta-game shenanigan that the strategic capital move rule is aimed at preventing in the first place.

There is an important semantic difference between a forward base and a realm. If your only goal is to create a recruitment base for nobles whom you expect to come back to the parent realm afterwards, then it is a strategic move. However, if you make war in order to take the lands of your enemy and create a new realm there, then a secession is a legitimate way to achieve your goals.

As all rules which deal with intent instead of facts, it's hard to police.
After all it's a roleplaying game.