Author Topic: Closing Islands ?  (Read 124645 times)

Vita`

  • BM Dev Team
  • Honourable King
  • *
  • Posts: 2558
    • View Profile
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #30: July 18, 2013, 06:41:19 PM »
Tom, my thoughts have been the following, since I've returned.

New players only get 2 nobles and 1 advy. As the game is primarily social, I think having one of your starting characters be an adventurer, which is a much slower game, is a poor decision. Nor do I think reducing the noble count from the historical 3 starting nobles is the best idea either. Especially with player density as it is, new players should have as many opportunities as possible to find a talkative realm (Delvin's changes will help with this) that will teach them the game. Thus, I think an immediate change to a default of 3 starting nobles and waiting 30 days until one can play an adventurer (as a 4th character) would do wonders.

I also think that the game has changed a lot from the early days in the department of war. I remember when there was very little downtime between wars. Now, it seems realms can go weeks and months between wars, in a game called battlemaster. I think this may have also affected the military capabilities of realms, which gives an advantage to numbers over tactics and strategy. Thus, I think a War Island should be reopened, with everyone having one character locked into the island, unable to immigrate or emmigrate and independent of any other character limits. This way, at least everyone always has an option of having a war to fight and builds experience and innovation in fighting those wars. Of course, characters would still be pausable because we can't force people to play where they don't want, but I do think many would be interested in this and new players would be likely to find someone from one of the four realms to mentor them, since so many players will be on the island. As it is, I suspect many new players join realms and never find someone to mentor them in the quirks of the game (like the hours system).

I absolutely echo Geronus' ideas (I've been mentioning them on IRC for some time) about every continent facing an invasion. Let the players, realms, and islands survive via merit and those who can't survive, have their regions blighted. This would remove regions from play in a fashion that gives everyone an opportunity to affect the outcome. The maps can be saved and if the playerbase grows, a storyline about reconquering lost regions can be created and the regions expanded. But until then, the geographic changes that occur from losing regions will be allow new continental shapes, which should be about as interesting as a new continent itself.

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #31: July 18, 2013, 06:41:42 PM »
I never played on the war islands. They closed before I could get a character on them. Bringing one of them back would be a possible way to bring back some former players, as well as help retain existing players. If this were done, I think the rule set would really have to be discussed thoroughly. It needs to be done in such a way as to minimize the code differences between it and the normal islands. One of the original reasons for closing the war islands was that they complexity of maintaining the multiple code bases with differing rule sets was making coding and bug hunting extremely difficult and time consuming.

As to the idea of closing an existing island, the idea is to reduce the available land to increase the density. Simply merging islands will not accomplish this. We need to actually remove regions from the game. Some possible ways to increase density, not all related to closing and island: (Note that I have not really considered code complexity or time required to implement these ideas. This is just brainstorming ideas.)
  • Redraw the maps of existing islands to reduce region count. SameCharacters / LessRegions = HigherDensity
  • Lop off parts of islands. For example:
    • Sink Kalmar islands on, it's worthless anyway.
    • Lop off the Riombara/Suville portion of AT/BT.
    • Sink the Dark Isle on FEI.
    • Drop a huge meteor into the center of AT, blasting a giant crater into the island. Fill it with an inner ocean, and divide it into sea regions, and maybe a small island or two. You can combine this with lopping off the corners (Suville/Darka/BoM) to create a "ring" island.
    • Sink one of the halves of Dwilight, maybe as part of a Zuma attack.
  • Crank up monster spawn on all islands. Whenever a region goes rogue, and is completely surrounded by other rogue regions, (i.e. is not attached to any non-rogue region) it gets permanently blighted. Leave this going until the desired loss of regions is complete. (May require some hand tweaking at the end to leave you with a playable island... Or not! ;D)

If closing an entire island is truly the way to go, then I don't like the idea of merging islands. This is a huge can of worms, and will cause massive problems across the board. And not just potential bugs and an absolute nightmare to code. What about people that have two characters on each of the islands merged? Now they'll have four characters on the same island? Once they are merged, how do you then trim down the total number of regions?

Instead, I, like many others it seems, like the idea of an invasion-style "test". Do some kind of invasion and see which island dies first. Whichever one is the first tog et wiped completeyl, closes. The others can be restored, partly or completely, perhaps through a tapering off of the invasion. You can do an automated invasion, perhaps with a GM-played "leader" that has some, but minor, influence over the invaders. Tim can whip up some basic "AI" to help guide the monsters through a short/simple decision tree. (Tim and I have discussed this in the past.) This time, rather that completely delete the regions from the DB like happened with BT, leave them there, but blighted, for possible future reclamation.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Lavigna

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 223
    • View Profile
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #32: July 18, 2013, 06:53:24 PM »
This is not about WHICH island to close, but about whether or not to do it at all.

In case you have been living under a rock the past years: BM is falling apart because it was designed with a specific player density in mind. A higher density we always countered by creating new game worlds. But a lower density, as we have now, is not so easily fixed.

One solution would be the inverse - reducing the number of islands. That also means a loss of a lot of history, character achievements, realms with their culture and so on and so forth.

The questions in my mind are:
  • Would the player community be open to a step like this AT ALL ?
  • Can we, together, find ways to make it bearable?


Personaly i m not open to this step. You pretty much answered it yourself. That would be a lot of history gone.

There are islands which i wouldn't mind see closed but i am sure they are important to others.There are islands that i don't like but respect their history. It is one tough decision to just put a name forth.

Even the islands i adore and believe that require some radical changes it would pretty much hurt me to see them go.
Since invasions are pretty much off the table, re-arranging some islands could be a way to wake them up.

I really liked Indirik's ideas and i m pretty much supporting changes on islands over deletion of an entire island.
Suck my socks! I kill for Darka! -KK-

Zakilevo

  • Guest
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #33: July 18, 2013, 07:00:08 PM »
What will happen if you already have 2 nobles in the island you need to invade/transfer to?

Will you allow 3 nobles?

Draco Tanos

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1128
    • View Profile
    • Nova Roma
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #34: July 18, 2013, 07:04:52 PM »
I'm sorry, but apparently the invasions of Beluaterra have taught you all nothing.  It DROVE PEOPLE AWAY.  We lost players, players we may never get back.  Why?  Because some people think losing years of work is "fun" while it seems many others do not.

You talk about destroying continents and realms in ways that cannot truly be prevented (much like the Third Invasion).  This will not encourage people to join other continents.  It will simply make them wonder what is the point when in the end anything they do won't matter.  They will quit.

We've seen it before, we'll see it again.  With Beluaterra.  With the War Islands.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Revan

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 410
    • View Profile
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #35: July 18, 2013, 07:09:16 PM »
I can live with an island sinking if it makes it a better game for everyone elsewhere. I was never all that fussed about the War Islands myself, though I can see why there might be some attraction when war can be so hard to come by these days. Though if player density has fallen too low, reviving a war island or two doesn't seem an obvious resolution to me. It might make the game more sticky for those already playing but it doesn't refill the other continents.

I'm not sure about the continent invasion ideas. Although Beluaterra has its fans, that kind of gameplay isn't everyone's cup of tea. I don't think launching massive simultaneous invasions of all existing islands is going to be welcomed as an opportunity for players to determine which continent gets deleted either. Seems more like a long-winded way for devs to dodge taking responsibility for a potentially unpopular decision. Better for them to just come out with whatever they come up with and we all just get on with it. Save us the hassle of an invasion first.

Instead of removing one island, would it be an option to 'reset' it, i.e. create 4 or 5 starter realms and leave the rest of the island as rogue lands to be conquered, as it was with the opening of Dwilight?

Having been around for the early stages of Dwilight, I can't say that I found establishing new territories and building a whole realm from scratch very interesting. There was a lot of just sitting around doing nothing. Plus you had the problem of everyone being interested solely on setting up a new realm somewhere of their own. The gold rush quality of that situation really didn't show off BattleMaster at her best and it was an eternity before any proper wars broke out.

This is why I think there is some mileage in Tom's proposal that continents potentially be merged or what have you. People get to keep their old ties and realms that have been built up. It's not coming up with something from scratch and starting everything anew. No meeting new people, coming up with RP for new realms or founding new religions. Better to keep and use the stuff we have, especially if it will help retain players who have put a lot of time and effort into their realms. I think there is a lot to be said for an option like this which tries to respect the history of islands and realms.

vonGenf

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
    • View Profile
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #36: July 18, 2013, 07:31:45 PM »
I wouldn't like to see Daimons or other Beluaterra-like invasions come to other islands. This creates a PvE game. It can be fun, but pure PvP is fun too. If you have invasions that "test" other islands, basically that means forcing player-led realms to band together against the invaders instead of having wars between themselves.

There are ways to reduce the land area of other islands without having an invasion. The auto-blight idea for rogue regions surrounded by other rogue regions may work, and doesn't need an invasion.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Atanamir

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
    • View Profile
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #37: July 18, 2013, 07:32:42 PM »
I think we should think outside of the box and increase the character amounts for current players and drop those fame barriers for new players.
Even if it means to set the character limit higher for a temporary period till we get more players, but this way we encourage to play more, not less.

The conservative approach of limiting things such as shrinking, sinking etc continents will also limit the player base in one way or another.
We saw this with SEI/SWI.

Investing is the best way to solve a crisis...
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 07:38:42 PM by Atanamir »

Blue Star

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
    • View Profile
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #38: July 18, 2013, 07:47:04 PM »
The easiest solution would to work with what you have, without making cuts on the continents' but increases on the players' side.
It will hurt players to see continents merged,drown etc, but it won't hurt them to be able to play more.
The solution would be to allow everyone to have on every continent at least 1 character, on 2 continents should even 2 be allowed.
For donations 2 chars on 3 continents, so one extra char.

That means for example 2 on EC, 2 on AT, and then one each of the other islands.
If you have made a donation, you can have 2 chars on one further continent as well.

Also, the current system with only 2 (Nobles) + 1 (Advy) till 5 fame is stopping a lot of new players in their gaming ability.
At least those new ones I know, will need forever till they get those 5 fame and get a third noble.
This fame rule should be deleted again.

Tom,

Love BM, coming back was great I regret having to leave for a few years. I will miss the war islands forever, Toren Toren Toren. I must say though if we are going to sink a island or Merge it I see that as a even bigger drop in Players. I cannot fathom the drop, but I know we don't have to just yet.

Let's increase character noble for newer players, and at least try it for awhile, as the quote says above. Trial run for say 2 months, would help retention some and give players the chance to see more of the game. It can't hurt to try, though I know it will mess fame up and such.

Also, we got a boost in players from that other game maybe we should begin marketing BM more to other sites, forums, etc.. We can do more for this game and I don't mean the Dev team and you alone. I'm sure the PLAYERs can help as well. I mean were a community let work to get other to play as well. *coughs* i've brought a few people from other games and I will continue to do so because I want others to enjoy it.

I mean worst case scenario, sink a island and bring back the war Islands, two realms pitted against each other until the world ends or the damions take over! Yes, a few players would come back, but a few does not mean the majority of us so lets consider all alternative before we do such.

Note* If we sink something let that contient go out with a bang.. Fire demons, Gaints, Evil queens.
I think like a sinner. Curse like a sailor. Smile like a saint. :)

Astinus

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #39: July 18, 2013, 07:52:28 PM »
As an old player coming back after years, I have to say that being limited to 2 nobles + 1 advy is a great stepback: for true newbies it might means ending up in slow paced realm and getting a wrong idea of the game, for older player it's a just an apparently pointless limit which may lead to poor roleplay choice in order to grind those fame points.

Having said that, I think Indirik suggestions sound good: it would only mean changing parts of continents instead of fully deleting them.

I am also strongly against the idea of choosing the continento to be closed by running an invasion lottery: Beluatarra's invasions were funny because you could actually side with the invaders and players were also fighting other players who taught that using the daimons for their purpose was good for their realms. When the existance of the continent itself is on the stakes who are going to side with invaders? It would only end in frustrating PvE and lots of drama for the power of daimons doomstack and such.

So I'm up with reducing the overall numbers of region, like Indirik suggested, rather than deleting a whole island. Especially if the one to be deleted had to be chosen by invasions

egamma

  • Guest
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #40: July 18, 2013, 07:56:09 PM »
I'm sorry, but apparently the invasions of Beluaterra have taught you all nothing.  It DROVE PEOPLE AWAY.  We lost players, players we may never get back.  Why?  Because some people think losing years of work is "fun" while it seems many others do not.

You talk about destroying continents and realms in ways that cannot truly be prevented (much like the Third Invasion).  This will not encourage people to join other continents.  It will simply make them wonder what is the point when in the end anything they do won't matter.  They will quit.

We've seen it before, we'll see it again.  With Beluaterra.  With the War Islands.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Maybe the problem is that people take the game too seriously if they think of it as "work".

It is a game. When you lose, you start over.

Also, I like the War Island idea, as proposed by Indirik. Make it an extra free character, with no migration.

I think we should think outside of the box and increase the character amounts for current players and drop those fame barriers for new players.
Even if it means to set the character limit higher for a temporary period till we get more players, but this way we encourage to play more, not less.

The conservative approach of limiting things such as shrinking, sinking etc continents will also limit the player base in one way or another.
We saw this with SEI/SWI.

Investing is the best way to solve a crisis...


You're not the first to think of that solution. The problem is, that it leads to an increase in zombie characters--they move and follow orders, but don't really do any roleplaying. It's a "quantity" solution, when what we really want is a "quality" solution.

Atanamir

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 251
    • View Profile
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #41: July 18, 2013, 08:01:48 PM »
You're not the first to think of that solution. The problem is, that it leads to an increase in zombie characters--they move and follow orders, but don't really do any roleplaying. It's a "quantity" solution, when what we really want is a "quality" solution.

I believe in the current players to be quality players, mostly.
And if you check now realms, that what you say is already often the case, so it wouldn't really make a difference.
With an exception to the new players of course, who could become quality players much easier.

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #42: July 18, 2013, 08:18:41 PM »
I'd like it to be as separate from the rest of the game as possible. Every player get one character on the war island, independent of character limits. No migrations to or from the war island.

Yes, that's very much the idea I had in mind. Similarly, restrict use of family wealth on the war island, in both directions. (Though possibly not cut off all options...some of them create great possibilities in a war!)
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Kwanstein

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 372
    • View Profile
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #43: July 18, 2013, 08:19:38 PM »
As far as additional characters go, I think that the current system needs to be changed. Currently, medals coalesce under the magnetic eyes of powerful Kings, Dukes and other important players, while most other people are left out of the loop. This leads to situations where a small amount of players will have 20+ medals, where as most others will lack even five. This is not because those few elite players are twenty times more fun or trustworthy or that their roleplaying is twenty times better; it is merely because they enjoy positions that receive a lot of attention, so the decentralised, amateur-run reward system, which is by it's nature prone to a narrow-minded redundancy when issuing awards, single-mindedly caters to them and only to them. This does not lead to a fair spread of medals across players, so many players who would be capable of playing an additional character are under-utilised.

Also, I think that the idea that giving players an additional character would dilute the amount of effort put into each individual character is false, or, at least, it's effects exaggerated. The principal cause for lack of effort put into this game, I think, would most often be the total lack of wars in many areas. It's not that the game is too much of a time burden for most people, it's that there are so many realms where there's a total lack of anything to do, because they lack the most reliable and effective cause for activity, warfare. The lack of warfare has roots in the lack of characters, as in the vast majority of realms there are simply not enough landless characters to make imperialism worth it, nor do they posses enough characters to wage proper war anyway (for one thing, gold is often so abundant as to make the economy of war totally inconsequential, such is the case in Darka, where the dukes supposedly have 50,000 gold saved up -- a bottomless warchest if there ever war one). So, far from reducing the amount of effort put into individual characters, reducing the character restriction would result in a net increase of effort all around.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 08:22:23 PM by Kwanstein »

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #44: July 18, 2013, 08:25:57 PM »
You're not the first to think of that solution. The problem is, that it leads to an increase in zombie characters--they move and follow orders, but don't really do any roleplaying. It's a "quantity" solution, when what we really want is a "quality" solution.

Well...honestly, what we need is both :P

More drones aren't a bad thing. What's a bad thing is more characters whose sole purpose is to prop up other characters—the knight who says nothing for months until his brother, the General (for whom he voted), is wounded, and then he starts giving orders as if he's the Marshal.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan