Author Topic: Closing Islands ?  (Read 55349 times)

Daycryn

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #375: July 30, 2013, 08:38:01 PM »
Actually, I think Dwilight's character base is probably most well equiped to cope with the loss of the island, that is to say, to adapt and incorporate the changes into existing lore. It's not the map that makes it fun. Stuff like SA and the lore of the DU can be transferred quite easily, after all most of it exists attached to the characters and written up in the wiki. And I say this with total love for Dwilight and what's been going on there. I think this whole thing could actually be really fun.
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Geronus

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #376: July 30, 2013, 08:45:58 PM »
I agree that the retention study should be redone.

There's something to the idea that the older islands eventually become more static and calcified. That's obviously subjective, but it's an impression I share. What does history matter if the present is dull and uninteresting for the new arrivals we need to attract and keep?

pcw27

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #377: July 30, 2013, 08:50:36 PM »
Deleting Dwilight is a terrible idea. It's got the highest retention rate. Are we seriously considering sacking an extremely popular continent on the off chance that it will revive boring stagnant ones? What reason do we have to believe forcing Dwilight's characters into the various dull continents will even work. Think about it, the players on Dwilight only have one character there, ergo they're free to make characters on other continents. I for one am at my full limit. Why aren't these other characters infusing the same excitement of Dwilight into the other continents? Think about it, same player same ability to write a good character.

Chances are if we delete Dwilight the players immigrating will have the same experience as if they'd created a brand new character. They'll get bored and drop to a bare minimum of activity. I imagine they'd then leave the game entirely because there will be no interesting continent to hold them.

The idea that the continent is irrelevant and all the culture and fun of Dwilight can be transported is complete and utter bull!@#$. Culture is a product of its environment and this holds true in Battlemaster as well. It's been pointed out that the geography of Dwilight has created cultures that can't exist anywhere else. It's true that the geography of other game worlds also impacts the realms there, the difference is it evidently leaves them boring and stagnant.

Why don't we just turn up the monster spawns and drought rates on one or more continents and leave it at that. We're already talking about doing so as part of the deletion of the continent. Why don't we just stop short of destroying the whole thing? This way even EC is a candidate after all what better way to add to the history of the game's original continent. This is probably the only choice that has a good chance of reviving the continent because it will make that continent more like Dwilight, a realm with many empty regions and a frontier to be conquered.


Actually, I think Dwilight's character base is probably most well equiped to cope with the loss of the island, that is to say, to adapt and incorporate the changes into existing lore. It's not the map that makes it fun. Stuff like SA and the lore of the DU can be transferred quite easily, after all most of it exists attached to the characters and written up in the wiki. And I say this with total love for Dwilight and what's been going on there. I think this whole thing could actually be really fun.

According to roleplay the blood star constellation is only visible from Dwilight. So no you can't just pick it up and move it elsewhere.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 08:54:27 PM by pcw27 »

vonGenf

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #378: July 30, 2013, 09:01:36 PM »
According to roleplay the blood star constellation is only visible from Dwilight. So no you can't just pick it up and move it elsewhere.

That would be the easiest thing to deal with, really. The continent drowned, the shaking was so great even the Stars moved!

Culture is a product of its environment and this holds true in Battlemaster as well. It's been pointed out that the geography of Dwilight has created cultures that can't exist anywhere else. It's true that the geography of other game worlds also impacts the realms there, the difference is it evidently leaves them boring and stagnant.

This is an argument I buy. Dwilight has created a continental culture that does not exist in any other island. Pretty much everywhere else I play the realm border is a cultural event horizon. This is also fine, of course, but you couldn't transplant individual Dwilight realms elsewhere and expect the cultures to remain, because the cultures are intertwined.
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Ender

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #379: July 30, 2013, 09:10:31 PM »
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According to roleplay the blood star constellation is only visible from Dwilight. So no you can't just pick it up and move it elsewhere.

I'm not going to argue which continent needs to go, but if you can roleplay that a bunch of pretend stars in a pretend sky can have pretend effects on people then those same pretend stars can probably suddenly move without much effort in anyone's roleplays. The stars are divine, after all. Who are you to say they can't move?

I do buy the argument that the culture is a product of the geography, but any established culture can endure elsewhere too because it has been established already. I moved an entire religion between continents myself before. It wasnt the same size, influence, or anything at all like SA, but it adapted and worked for a long time. Other religions exist between continents just fine currently too.

pcw27

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #380: July 30, 2013, 09:17:28 PM »
Has anyone considered switching existing Continents SMA?

That would be the easiest thing to deal with, really. The continent drowned, the shaking was so great even the Stars moved!


I find that to be a pretty cheap solution. Especially since we're talking about a series of famines and monster spawns.

This is an argument I buy. Dwilight has created a continental culture that does not exist in any other island. Pretty much everywhere else I play the realm border is a cultural event horizon. This is also fine, of course, but you couldn't transplant individual Dwilight realms elsewhere and expect the cultures to remain, because the cultures are intertwined.

When War Islands was deleted people tried to recreate the realms cultures and religions on Dwilight. Keep in mind this was a brand new continent with no established rival cultures, realms or religions to give them trouble. The end result is that almost every trace of those transplanted cultures disappeared. Torenism was wiped out by SA, and people basically stopped talking about their former countries. I think the only one left who mentions War Island is Karibash.

Foxglove

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #381: July 30, 2013, 09:18:37 PM »
On the retention study, how could we possibly determine whether any one island is more responsible for retaining players in the game than another island? The only way I can think of is measuring which players only play on a specifiic island, so you can be sure that the one and only island they play on is the reason they're in the game.

For most players, I'd imagine it's a combination of islands/realms that keep them interested.

pcw27

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #382: July 30, 2013, 09:22:44 PM »
You can go by how long their character lasted on a given Island. If I made characters on continent A and B at the same time and I deleted the one on A after a few months but the one on B has been going strong for five years that tends to suggest continent B held my attention and continent A didn't.

At any rate character density is a much worse measure as several continents allow two characters per player.

Meneldur

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #383: July 30, 2013, 09:30:57 PM »
SA theology can be easily shifted, in fact I've been thinking of a few explanations since this thread started, ranging from digging up the old wiki texts which mention Morek's founders having visions before they arrived on Dwilight, to coming up with a Rabbinical Judaism style reform in which the religion survives but without some of the vital rituals which were tied to a now lost geographical reality.

In any case thats all quite relevant to the matter at hand. As much as I love Dwilight and SA, it is a silly argument to say it should be exempt from consideration just because we rped some big red stars- I'm sure every continent has its own unique role playing points and its up to us as players to keep these alive if our island is scheduled for deletion.

IMO if a continent is deleted then it should be selected for a practical reason like low player count, low player retention, low attractiveness to newcomers etc etc. rather than a forum argument over whose culture is the "most unique"

Ender

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #384: July 30, 2013, 09:33:02 PM »
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When War Islands was deleted people tried to recreate the realms cultures and religions on Dwilight. Keep in mind this was a brand new continent with no established rival cultures, realms or religions to give them trouble. The end result is that almost every trace of those transplanted cultures disappeared. Torenism was wiped out by SA, and people basically stopped talking about their former countries. I think the only one left who mentions War Island is Karibash.

Fair enough. Though that doesn't mean it's impossible though. It would just require enough players who cared enough to hold onto their culture to keep it going. It's the same in BM as it is in real life, as long as someone remembers than a culture will endure. If no one can be bothered then it dies out. If enough people can't be bothered to hold onto their cultures when whichever continent sinks, then you can't blame the game for killing it off.

Quote
In any case thats all quite relevant to the matter at hand. As much as I love Dwilight and SA, it is a silly argument to say it should be exempt from consideration just because we rped some big red stars- I'm sure every continent has its own unique role playing points and its up to us as players to keep these alive if our island is scheduled for deletion.

This! And that's why I should pay attention when it warns me that someone posted while I was replying.

Daycryn

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #385: July 30, 2013, 09:40:32 PM »
The idea that the continent is irrelevant and all the culture and fun of Dwilight can be transported is complete and utter bull!@#$. Culture is a product of its environment and this holds true in Battlemaster as well. It's been pointed out that the geography of Dwilight has created cultures that can't exist anywhere else.

But, now existing, these cultures can go where the people that make them up can go. Cultures aren't like endangered species dependent on one dying ecosystem; people are adaptable and can transplant information and identity. Especially so with religious cultures, which are especially good at incorporating terrible things into existing mythology and carrying on traditions, even if...

Actually, what Meneldur just said. Stole the words from my mouth really.

Quote
Why don't we just turn up the monster spawns and drought rates on one or more continents and leave it at that. We're already talking about doing so as part of the deletion of the continent. Why don't we just stop short of destroying the whole thing? This way even EC is a candidate after all what better way to add to the history of the game's original continent. This is probably the only choice that has a good chance of reviving the continent because it will make that continent more like Dwilight, a realm with many empty regions and a frontier to be conquered.

This is a good idea too, however. Not nearly as dramatic, but alas.
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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #386: July 30, 2013, 09:46:14 PM »
Fair enough. Though that doesn't mean it's impossible though. It would just require enough players who cared enough to hold onto their culture to keep it going. It's the same in BM as it is in real life, as long as someone remembers than a culture will endure. If no one can be bothered then it dies out. If enough people can't be bothered to hold onto their cultures when whichever continent sinks, then you can't blame the game for killing it off.

This! And that's why I should pay attention when it warns me that someone posted while I was replying.

Way to single out the one thing you agreed with, because right under that he says this:


IMO if a continent is deleted then it should be selected for a practical reason like low player count, low player retention, low attractiveness to newcomers etc etc. rather than a forum argument over whose culture is the "most unique"

Ender

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #387: July 30, 2013, 09:51:02 PM »
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Way to single out the one thing you agreed with, because right under that he says this:

I never said I disagreed with it. The continent chosen should be deleted for practical reasons.

I'm simply pointing out that anyone who is worried that their culture is going to be destroyed by the loss of a continent has no reason to worry if enough people care enough about said culture. The only reason I'm using Dwilight as an example is because he's talking about why Dwilight should stay because of how unique it is. My example can easily be applied to any of the other continents/religions that could be on the chopping block.

pcw27

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #388: July 30, 2013, 09:57:02 PM »


IMO if a continent is deleted then it should be selected for a practical reason like low player count, low player retention, low attractiveness to newcomers etc etc. rather than a forum argument over whose culture is the "most unique"

I agree, I was pointing out the difficulty of transplanting Dwilight's culture because it seems to me people are getting the idea that if we delete Dwilight it's unique qualities will seed the other continents and germinate into a revived game. I think there's no guarantee that this is the case and it's far more likely the remnants of Dwilight will die out after some initial excitement and then we'll be left with all the other continents equally boring and also no Dwilight.

But, now existing, these cultures can go where the people that make them up can go. Cultures aren't like endangered species dependent on one dying ecosystem; people are adaptable and can transplant information and identity. Especially so with religious cultures, which are especially good at incorporating terrible things into existing mythology and carrying on traditions, even if...


Cultures are known to die out due to environmental pressures in real life and I've seen the same thing happen in game. If there were a good chance of Dwilight's cultures taking root all over BM then shouldn't it stand to reason that players who play on Dwilight can simply come up with characters in other game worlds and form new interesting cultures there? That doesn't seem to be happening.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 10:06:01 PM by pcw27 »

Blue Star

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #389: July 30, 2013, 09:59:06 PM »
umm just for sake of it I think we should leave this up to Tom, games been actively going for a long time his leadership and that of the dev/titans has been well whats held us together as a community whether your new, been around since the beginning or jumped off in on with the game.

Forum can only represent those of us who choose to come on here. Can their be a IG message sent to everyone regarding the closing of a island or islands. It would be good to inform them of this conversation, I think all the players should be made aware of the gravity of that can affect them.
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