Author Topic: Closing Islands ?  (Read 55932 times)

Telrunya

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #390: July 30, 2013, 10:00:52 PM »
Keep in mind that with some way to emigrate away as a Realm to carve out a new home on another Continent will help preserving that culture. Of course the culture will evolve from there, and not everything will survive, but it does get a good aid to establish itself.

I'm pretty sure Tom will have the final say on this matter. He's just letting us debate so he can come to the right conclusion and to find the best method to do this.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 10:04:27 PM by Telrunya »

Wolfang

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #391: July 30, 2013, 10:01:34 PM »
Why all this talk about Dwilight?

Why not Atamara? It's not unique in the sense that there is a continent very similar and other continents are also 2 char per player. It's also reputed to be quite boring.

Ender

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #392: July 30, 2013, 10:05:41 PM »
Quote
Forum can only represent those of us who choose to come on here. Can their be a IG message sent to everyone regarding the closing of a island or islands. It would be good to inform them of this conversation, I think all the players should be made aware of the gravity of that can affect them.

That's a good idea. Even if a decision has been reached, putting a message on the login screen or something would at least let people read up on what's happening.

Revan

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #393: July 30, 2013, 10:09:49 PM »
I think we're all maybe being a bit too quick to judge here. We don't know yet which continent will be closed and it still might be that more than one of them bites the dust. And as much as we might all want to defend our particular favourite islands, I don't think it's helpful to start bashing on the others. Different continents offer different experiences and there are things going on in places people love all across the worlds of BattleMaster. A 'who shouts the loudest' discussion isn't going to do us any favours.

Whatever island gets closed, it is being done for a practical purpose. I don't think anybody is chomping at the bit to see an island sunk, but player/character density isn't a patch on what it once was. It's not all doom and gloom though. The proposed 'invasion' mechanic from a dying continent could be something that radically alters the surviving game worlds and has the potential to change every island. Losing a continent will hurt, but it could also be fun.

When War Islands was deleted people tried to recreate the realms cultures and religions on Dwilight. Keep in mind this was a brand new continent with no established rival cultures, realms or religions to give them trouble. The end result is that almost every trace of those transplanted cultures disappeared. Torenism was wiped out by SA, and people basically stopped talking about their former countries. I think the only one left who mentions War Island is Karibash.

It will be different this time though, because if a continent (or continents) get sunk this time, mechanics are actually being put in place so realms can migrate en masse to another island to establish themselves through war. In your example, a handful of folk who had fun playing War Islands together joined in the Dwilight gold rush when the continent was founded. Sadly though, every man and his dog was trying to found new realms at the time. The Torenists ended up in a difficult spot and although we can bemoan that a realm with a decent culture and religion was lost, it came at the hands of one of the most successful and vibrant religions ever to grace BattleMaster.

pcw27

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #394: July 30, 2013, 10:14:00 PM »
Why all this talk about Dwilight?

Why not Atamara? It's not unique in the sense that there is a continent very similar and other continents are also 2 char per player. It's also reputed to be quite boring.

I still think we're better off trying to fix what's wrong with the existing continents rather then deleting one and hoping it will have the desired effect. I'm not even sure it's been explained why the game is in such dire straits that we need such extreme measures. People have said things like "low player density" but that's not a full explanation. Is player density dropping exponentially?

First and foremost I think all of us might want to make an effort to recruit more players (which is being discussed on the facebook campaign section).

Second I think it will do a lot for the game if we just increased environmental hazards like monsters undead and droughts.

Third it might help to have a discussion with high ranking players in continents that tend to be considered dull and suggest ways they can make things more interesting.



It will be different this time though, because if a continent (or continents) get sunk this time, mechanics are actually being put in place so realms can migrate en masse to another island to establish themselves through war. In your example, a handful of folk who had fun playing War Islands together joined in the Dwilight gold rush when the continent was founded. Sadly though, every man and his dog was trying to found new realms at the time.

It wasn't just a few people. Different realms had specific colonies they were going to join in order to maintain dominance. I don't see any real difference between that and what's being proposed.

The Torenists ended up in a difficult spot and although we can bemoan that a realm with a decent culture and religion was lost, it came at the hands of one of the most successful and vibrant religions ever to grace BattleMaster.

I don't bemoan the fact that Torenism died out, however it died out so something new could form. Dwilights cultures will be dieing out to maintain the status quo.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 10:20:23 PM by pcw27 »

Telrunya

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #395: July 30, 2013, 10:20:42 PM »
In all honesty, recruiting campaigns have been set up multiple times already. And we're still finding ourselves in this situation. We can call out to increase recruiting each time the problem arises, but there comes a time when you have to conclude that we can't hold out for that forever.

To be honest, I believe the Mentor system really needs work (I understand time is a very valuable resource we have so very little off) and the previous proposed ideas need to be worked out and included before we worry about getting new players. I just feel the Mentor system is not working well right now, which I feel is just losing us an increased amount of new players.

Still, that won't solve the problem at hand and we can't hold out for those kind of things. It are things to do after we've done this, so that we can hopefully grow again one day to rediscover old worlds.

pcw27

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #396: July 30, 2013, 10:27:43 PM »
Again what exactly makes now the point at which we need to sink and Island or lose the game? I'm not really seeing it.

When was the last time there was an organized recruiting effort? I've been playing for about six years now and I can't recall anything being sent out to the player base.

If we are going to sink a continent, why don't we make it a contest. Every game world is encouraged to recruit as many new players as possible. Whoever gets the least gets the axe.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 10:31:26 PM by pcw27 »

Indirik

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #397: July 31, 2013, 12:26:39 AM »
So... organize a recruiting drive. Come up with a few hundred new players, and avoid getting an island closed. If you've got the timex, just do it. Open a new thread, and get to work.
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pcw27

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #398: July 31, 2013, 12:53:13 AM »
I can but it will also help for a blast to go out to those players who aren't on the forums. Something simple that explains the importance of character density and asks everyone to bring just one new character into the game.

Revan

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #399: July 31, 2013, 01:14:01 AM »
Tom said in the OP that 'BM is falling apart because it was designed with a specific player density in mind'. If you want a visual example of just how much the player base of BattleMaster has declined since its heyday, you need only look at the 'Most characters in one realm' record on the Records of BattleMaster wikipage. In October 2006, Abington on Atamara had 183 characters (and this was before adventurers.) Today, Suville occupies excactly the same 20 regions as Abington did then. But Suville has a paltry 36 nobles.



There was a time when East Continent, Atamara, Beluaterra, Colonies and Far East Island all had probably double the number of characters you see in the table above (in fact, Beluaterra once had nearly double the regions she had above!) In the days when Abington had over 180 characters, just three or four realms in Atamara had more nobles combined than what 14 realms in Atamara provide now. Relatively, the BattleMaster of today is like a ghost town compared to what it was.

I know a lot of people seem to find the older continents boring but I'd say it has a lot to do with how diminished some of the realms are. I cannot adequately describe how much better BattleMaster was when realms had scores of fellow comrades-in-arms for you to interact with. If you add together all the realms in Colonies, Atamara and Far East (Guess where I play? >.<) there are only five out of 26 realms that have more than 40 nobles. Time was you would struggle to find five realms amongst those continents with fewer than 40 nobles. Today some people speak of a 50-60 noble realm as being a big realm. Once realms of that size were practically minnows!

My guess is that in most realms nowadays lords and council members outnumber knights by a wide margin. These days it isn't difficult to become a lord or a ruler. It's difficult to remain a knight. You don't need to build relationships with anyone to advance and a lot of newer players easily find themselves thrown into the deep end of BattleMaster with barely any advice or experience whatsoever. And that is before looking at any other problems of low player density. For instance, these days on multiple character continents a realm of 30 nobles can easily be one of only 15 players.

I really wouldn't mind if even two continents were closed if it meant seeing big realms in BattleMaster again. As a rule, the more players in your realm, the more things that will happen and the better everything will be. There is nowhere in BattleMaster where the game experience would not immeasurably improve with the sudden influx of 100-200 more characters. No matter how painful it will be to close an island or two in the short-term, in the longer term we'll all be better off for it.

Tom

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #400: July 31, 2013, 01:39:05 AM »
Revan explained it well.


There seem to be still people around who think that the alternative to closing one island is not closing any islands. You are mistaken. The alternative to closing one island is closing all of them, because the game will be dead sooner or later if we don't do something.

Go recruit - we tried it before. I would be thrilled if it were that easy and you can find a few hundred new players. I just don't think it will work.

We need to close at least one island to save the rest of the game. It will hurt. Probably a lot. There will be damage and loss and frustration. There will be angry people. There will be players who quit the game. All of that is still better than losing the game entirely.


Valast

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #401: July 31, 2013, 01:50:47 AM »
According to that, we should axe BT, Dwilight or Colonies. FEI is much better than everyone here makes it, it has the highest player densite in the game.

Hmmm the Colonies are undergoing a bit of player forced restructure...if we can ever force the last hold out nation into the Colonial Federation that is.  It is basically a reset back to single city realms with perks for infiltrators and a few other little tidbits all in the hope of creating more action.  If the Colonies were to go...its not bad timing.

Cons are that it is the single turn island... and also would be the end of Outer Tilog.  But tough times call for tough measures.

I am good with what ever... so long as the game keeps trucking.








pcw27

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #402: July 31, 2013, 02:13:53 AM »
Revan explained it well.


There seem to be still people around who think that the alternative to closing one island is not closing any islands. You are mistaken. The alternative to closing one island is closing all of them, because the game will be dead sooner or later if we don't do something.


I still don't understand why it isn't just as good to turn up monster spawns and famines in order to drive a lot of regions rogue. It's a lot easier to accept both in character and out. In addition if player influx improves then the famines and spawns can just be turned back down and new lands can be conquered again.

Tom said in the OP that 'BM is falling apart because it was designed with a specific player density in mind'. If you want a visual example of just how much the player base of BattleMaster has declined since its heyday, you need only look at the 'Most characters in one realm' record on the Records of BattleMaster wikipage. In October 2006, Abington on Atamara had 183 characters (and this was before adventurers.) Today, Suville occupies excactly the same 20 regions as Abington did then. But Suville has a paltry 36 nobles.



There was a time when East Continent, Atamara, Beluaterra, Colonies and Far East Island all had probably double the number of characters you see in the table above (in fact, Beluaterra once had nearly double the regions she had above!) In the days when Abington had over 180 characters, just three or four realms in Atamara had more nobles combined than what 14 realms in Atamara provide now. Relatively, the BattleMaster of today is like a ghost town compared to what it was.

I know a lot of people seem to find the older continents boring but I'd say it has a lot to do with how diminished some of the realms are. I cannot adequately describe how much better BattleMaster was when realms had scores of fellow comrades-in-arms for you to interact with. If you add together all the realms in Colonies, Atamara and Far East (Guess where I play? >.<) there are only five out of 26 realms that have more than 40 nobles. Time was you would struggle to find five realms amongst those continents with fewer than 40 nobles. Today some people speak of a 50-60 noble realm as being a big realm. Once realms of that size were practically minnows!



That actually sounds like too high a density to me. Back then it took two or three years before I was promoted to anything. It got really boring. I probably would have quit if Dwilight hadn't opened up. I agree that one noble per region is too few, but four or five is too much given the way the game is now. Unless serious work is put in to give Knights more to do increasing the knight population is just going to decrease the player population.


My guess is that in most realms nowadays lords and council members outnumber knights by a wide margin. These days it isn't difficult to become a lord or a ruler. It's difficult to remain a knight. You don't need to build relationships with anyone to advance and a lot of newer players easily find themselves thrown into the deep end of BattleMaster with barely any advice or experience whatsoever.


Speaking from experience, you're no less thrown into the deep end if you get a lordship after two years then if you get one after two weeks. As it stands now, being a Knight doesn't prepare you in any way for a lordship because there are virtually no shared mechanics. Being Steward might help a tiny bit.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2013, 02:20:59 AM by pcw27 »

Chenier

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #403: July 31, 2013, 03:05:56 AM »
I won't be deleting EC. It has all the history of this game, in a certain sense, EC is BattleMaster.
I also don't think it would be fair to wipe out BT - they fought for their island and could've lost it, and won against the odds.

I personally would want to delete Dwilight, but I realize it has the most vocal and aggressive fans. However, here is the player density per island:



According to that, we should axe BT, Dwilight or Colonies. FEI is much better than everyone here makes it, it has the highest player densite in the game.

I've been on BT for quite a while, now... I've never felt that we "deserved" our victories against the invasions, at least not the last three. All of them felt like there were on a timer: last long enough, and the invasion will end itself, regardless of what you actually do. Surviving was a lot more about having the others attacked instead of yourself than actually defending yourself. The realms who fared the best were the realms that fought the least. The invasions ended in what really felt like deus ex machina all the time: random new dudes giving some unpredictable new means to fight the daimons appeared and the like.

BT was always a continent that you knew an invasion could mean the loss of it all. That doesn't mean anyone will love to lose all they have, there, but it's the fairest island to close.

And I disagree with the assertion that EC "is" BattleMaster. The game's been running for so long, that I'm sure a great portion of the playerbase has never spent any significant amount of time on it. It's also been the source of a whole lot of complaining and player-based issues over the years.

In any case, some reviewed statistics on player retention may be of use.
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pcw27

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Re: Closing Islands ?
« Reply #404: July 31, 2013, 03:15:02 AM »
The problem is Beluterra doesn't have many characters. We'd probably have to axe Beluterra and the Colonies to have the desired effect.