Author Topic: stopping ForumMaster from destroying BattleMaster  (Read 132194 times)

Valast

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I do prefer the Wiki better.  More like a personal journal that people could link to kinda like those annoying hashtags.

Eduardo Almighty

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Well.... more than ever we will need the paperworks again. Maybe more guilds as well, since most of them are just dead and was used just to give fame points.
Now with the Skovgaard Family... and it's gone.
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Vellos

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Have not read th whole thread, but:

Closing the locals is a good move (I say as someone who posts in the locals quite a lot).

But we SHOULD ALSO remove links to IRC realm/continent-threads, or at least stop automatically shunting players into them. If our thought is that these kinds of politically-based ghettoizations are bad, then we shouldn't just slam the forum. If people want to hunt down Dwilight channels on IRC, fine, but don't have them default into them when they click the IRC button.
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Bendix

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Wiki had that diffrence back the days when there was those news papers, that those were kind of in game. Those were public knowledge. You wrote page at news paper was similar as you would send message to whole continent, or even whole world.


I haven't been around that long, so I'm not sure which 'newspapers' he is talking about, but whatever it is, it sounds like a great idea. One of my characters did an interview for a paper call The White Tree Times (published out of what is present-day Nivemus, East Continent) and it was one of the richest RP experiences I have been a part of. It allows for character exposition on a scale you cannot find in regular RP interacts OR on the forums.

A lot of people don't want to close down the locals channel because it will eliminate their main source of information about their continent. But, by the logic of what Battlemaster is supposed to be at it core, which is a Roleplaying game that has no end and which cannot be won or lost, doing all your RP work in a single sentence on an OOG is detrimental to the entire point. It is also, as has been pointed out, a source of tension between players. We don't want tension between players. We want tension between characters.

A newspaper feature would allow for a lot of what is discussed OOG in the Locals to be made public.

I guess I'm making a feature request here, but I think this is the write thread to post it in:

In my perfect fantasy world it would be an option either under "Global Information" (e.g. "Political Map, Dynamic Map, Statistics, newspapers") or under "Actions" (e.g. "Visit the Academy, Bounty Board, Read the Newspapers") and would allow whatever is printed by journalists on the continent to be viewed by anyone. Of course there would have to be some restrictions on who posts what and how often, and I think making a 'Journalist' Subclass would probably be going to far, so obviously this is just a daydream I'm having out loud.

My central point is this: a lot of people put a lot of energy into posting on the locals. In a way, it's a crude form of propaganda, either for their realm, or against others. We need to find a way to direct all that energy into the game. We need a way for characters to spread propaganda without having to go on the forums to do it.

Naidraug

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I am not sure that closing the locals is a good idea...

The ooc talk is almost none and discouraged inside the game, and it is good to have a place to talk about wars or the island. Maybe all it needs is better moderation to avoid big problems and discussions.
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Anaris

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But we SHOULD ALSO remove links to IRC realm/continent-threads, or at least stop automatically shunting players into them. If our thought is that these kinds of politically-based ghettoizations are bad, then we shouldn't just slam the forum. If people want to hunt down Dwilight channels on IRC, fine, but don't have them default into them when they click the IRC button.

This would make sense if the same things happened on IRC.

They don't.

In my experience, 99.5% of the bad stuff on IRC happens in the main #battlemaster channel. The continent channels are almost completely unused of late.

The realm channels, by a vast majority, consist of positive, sensible discussion about the realm among players who belong to the realm, and idle, but positive and sensible, OOC chat among those same players.

The former, at its very worst, can exclude those who do not come to IRC from such discussion. Removing the links to the realm channels will do less than nothing to prevent that: indeed, it will exacerbate it, as those who have been going there for years on desktop clients will still go there. All it will do is exclude new players from being easily able to access them.

The latter is the very best of what IRC has to offer. It helps us to get to know our fellow players as people, and bond with them, thus increasing the sense of community.

In sum, aside from a misplaced feeling that we have to be "fair" to all our different out-of-game communications channels, I can see absolutely no good reason to remove the auto-joins to the channels for the realms people belong to.
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Geronus

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Losing the local channels might promote guilds as the means of inter-realm communication. Guilds are nicely IG and IC plus they moderate themselves. The local boards made communication too easy.
It used to be so that realms would actually force their rulers to give e.g. weekly updates of what was going on on the continent, so everyone stayed involved. That way you could easily distinguish the good realms from the lesser ones (or the good rulers from the apathetic ones). I don't think people should get their information from the boards on the forum. It is a OOG medium and will, deny it as much as you will, influence the way your character behaves. Simply put; perhaps it is better you cannot know what is going on everywhere all the time. Your character don't, why should you?

People didn't stop doing these things when the forum was created. People stopped doing these things (or never did them in the first place) because they are a lot of work and effort, usually for very little return (or in the case of newspapers, no return at all). Closing the Local board is not going to inspire people to do more in the game and on the wiki than they're already doing. It's just going to cut off a source of passion for and interest in the game.

The idea that the forum is somehow responsible for what ails the game (as suggested by the title of this thread) is ridiculous, unprovable, and thoroughly hyperbolic. What ails the game is a lack of interest, passion and inspiration among players of the game, as reflected by a shrinking player base, quieter and quieter realms, and falling activity levels. Battlemaster is getting more boring, not less, and closing off one of the few channels of communication that still inspires passion and lets us still feel like a vibrant community will only exacerbate this trend.

Chenier

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Closing down locals is stupid, one of the reasons I decided to play this game was because of the interesting talks and politicking I read reading the Dwilight local. Now I will have absolutely nooooo idea what is going on with the war in the north, or pretty much anywhere at all except in my own realm. This is a pretty dissapointing move and will probably have a negative impact on player attraction and retention.

True, before then, unless you were one of the lucky people "in the know", most people were totally and utterly clueless as to continental events... heck, even about their own realm's politics in many cases.

It used to be so that realms would actually force their rulers to give e.g. weekly updates of what was going on on the continent, so everyone stayed involved. That way you could easily distinguish the good realms from the lesser ones (or the good rulers from the apathetic ones). I don't think people should get their information from the boards on the forum. It is a OOG medium and will, deny it as much as you will, influence the way your character behaves. Simply put; perhaps it is better you cannot know what is going on everywhere all the time. Your character don't, why should you?

I've never seen this. Some rulers did (I did my best to), but often they'd get replaced every now and then by rulers who would never give a single word about global events and I never saw a soul complain. I like to think that the "good" rulers were the active ones that tried to keep the others engaged, but, especially in the days, the popular rulers were often the ones that simply had the most days in realm and never really uttered any words.
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Revan

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BattleMaster managed for about 10 years without having any forum at all. It is a shame so many now feel that their game experience will be impinged by closing a single section of it. If anything though, probably the place that has been most affected by the advent of the forum is the wiki. Lots more information of all kinds used to get disseminated on there but not so much these days. Newspapers might have been some work to keep going on a regular basis, but it wasn't so much different in content to what you saw on the Island news facebook threads.

If anyone wants to keep spreading information about things that are happening in the game, I heartily recommend starting up your own newspaper. You don't have to build your own templates from scratch. I believe there is a page with pre-made templates designed for newspapers and if you don't fancy using those, just nick any template code you see in other newspapers you like. But you can approach it from all types of angles. You can be partisan to your realm, or focus on continent politics. Perhaps you will focus on your duchy. Or maybe someone will use their diplomat to send diplomatic papers home. It really can be a lot of fun once you get into it.

Chenier

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BattleMaster managed for about 10 years without having any forum at all. It is a shame so many now feel that their game experience will be impinged by closing a single section of it. If anything though, probably the place that has been most affected by the advent of the forum is the wiki. Lots more information of all kinds used to get disseminated on there but not so much these days. Newspapers might have been some work to keep going on a regular basis, but it wasn't so much different in content to what you saw on the Island news facebook threads.

If anyone wants to keep spreading information about things that are happening in the game, I heartily recommend starting up your own newspaper. You don't have to build your own templates from scratch. I believe there is a page with pre-made templates designed for newspapers and if you don't fancy using those, just nick any template code you see in other newspapers you like. But you can approach it from all types of angles. You can be partisan to your realm, or focus on continent politics. Perhaps you will focus on your duchy. Or maybe someone will use their diplomat to send diplomatic papers home. It really can be a lot of fun once you get into it.

The forum certainly didn't help the wiki, but feels to me like the wiki started declining in use much before the forums arrived.
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Kwanstein

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I remember that back when Aurvandil invaded Terran D-day style, Vellos and Kale reported it on the forum but neglected to tell anyone in-game. The result was that few players and fewer characters, even in Terran itself, knew what was going on. So there is a tendency to use the forum as a surrogate for in-game discussion.

Revan

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Just leaving a few links to a few old newspapers with different styles, formats and focuses to give people a taste of what can be done:

Atamaran Advocate
Falasan Inquirer
The Rampant Lion
Estahsism Echo
Heenite Highlights
Latlan Herald
The TattleMaster

The forum certainly didn't help the wiki, but feels to me like the wiki started declining in use much before the forums arrived.

Perhaps, but there are definitely things that the locals board have taken from the wiki. It may sound strange, but I feel that the forum has somewhat deprived BattleMaster of her memory and of her history. For example, there was a 100+ page thread on the continent-wide war on Atamara, but in two years the only mention of it anywhere on the wiki was on an empty placeholder page. It was only with some prodding in the thread long after the main events had passed that there was any record.

I know it has been nice to chat in near-real time about things that are happening in BattleMaster, but going back to page 18 of a forum thread to figure out why realm A went to war with realm B doesn't do a lot for the history, culture and world building we have in game. I know that it has always been hit and miss whether a realm's wiki is maintained or whether current events are recorded but I love that with some realms you can get a sense of their entire history going back half a decade. You see why things are as they are, why that war happened and why the vile realm of Keplerstan will always be your mortal enemy.

Foxglove

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It used to be so that realms would actually force their rulers to give e.g. weekly updates of what was going on on the continent, so everyone stayed involved. That way you could easily distinguish the good realms from the lesser ones (or the good rulers from the apathetic ones). I don't think people should get their information from the boards on the forum. It is a OOG medium and will, deny it as much as you will, influence the way your character behaves. Simply put; perhaps it is better you cannot know what is going on everywhere all the time. Your character don't, why should you?

This mirrors many of my own thoughts. The game should be the core of the game, not people feeling their interest in the game is being lessened by not being able to post to sections of the forum. If you want to know what's happening in the south of an island, and you're in the north, pressure your ruler or ambassadors to keep you updated. Or, even better, make contact with nobles in the realms you want to know about and ask them, increasing in-game communication. Join and promote guilds or religions as mediums to hear or share more news IC.

Having a fog of war in terms of information isn't a bad thing for the game. I also think that many people who use the forums just don't realize that the majority of players in the game hardly ever (or never) visit here. Shunting more communication and interaction into the game is positive, and will help with player retention.

Tom

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I mean without the thread that follows the initial complaint that is supposed to be gathering information for Magistrates. It rarely helps and I think it'd be better if they could request information from people privately, rather than into a public forum. Publicly post the initial complaint and the Magistrates' sentencing and reasoning, but keep the whole process of the decision private.

That is a problem of moderation. I personaly have told the Magistrates and the moderators that I have their back if they decide to mercilessly delete any post that is whiny complaining, even if it does also contain information relevant to the case. But as I gathered from the replies, they would rather put up with a certain level of crap then removing vital evidence. And in the end, it's their call.

Tom

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Well as has been pointed out, there are, or used to be anyway, realm and other player-created newspapers, posted on the wiki. That was a great source of fun, especially back in the day.

Exactly. We need those back, and I don't think it's a coincidence that they died down when the forum opened.

I want to make sure that everyone has read the sticky note. I plan to make the locals boards redirect to the newspapers section on the wiki afterwards.