Author Topic: stopping ForumMaster from destroying BattleMaster  (Read 132032 times)

Geronus

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And human communication is in part down because people have taken it to the forums. Even if just 20% of the stuff posted in locals previous can be directed back into the game again, that will noticeably increase the number of messages posted there, which in turn might bring people like you to add to it again, increasing communication in-game further.

This is an unprovable assumption. I don't think that the forum is even remotely the cause of the problem you've identified; if anything, it is only a symptom of the real problem, which is low player density.

There's just not enough players in most realms these days to generate the same vibrant levels of interaction that you see on the forum and that you used to see when average realms had 50+ characters each. You need a certain number of active players to generate self-sustaining interactions. Most realms don't meet that threshold any more, meaning that driving interaction has become a chore for the few players left who are active in each realm. It's like having a conversation with someone that only replies in one-word answers; it gets very draining after a while to keep the conversation going, so eventually you just stop talking and suffer the silence.

All the forum does is stand in stark contrast to the game in this respect. It may be tempting to blame it for the problem since it's doing so much better, but it's not the cause. It's just one of the few places left where generating BM-related interaction is a pleasure, not a chore.

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This entire argument reminds me of a paragraph in a course of mine. The elders of an african tribe noticed that the sick villagers would all go to the doctor. They made the link and decided the doctor had to be killed, because everyone that went to him was sick. This would cure the diseased. It was a funny illustration on correlation and causality. (needless to say the villagers started dying from sickness a lot faster and it was to late to revert what had been done)

Battlemaster had a lot of players before, and more activity. Dwilight didn't exist then and neither did the forums. Now Battlemaster is becoming emptier and less players, and there is Dwilight and there are forums. The continent which is most active is the one Tom would rather remove, and the part of the forums which have the most vibrant community is the one locked down.

This seems to me like an oversimplified panicked solution which avoids real issues, based on opinions and with no statistics to support these opinions.

-The local forums are great and provide a wealth of information. I have never seen anyone 'plan' anything on the forums. An extremely simple solution, would be to simply appoint one or two regulars to moderate each local. The idea that a forum would take away player gaming time is ridiculous and based upon nothing.
-Newspapers, I am sure new newspapers will come along, but what is the difference between a newspaper, and a thread like 'the great dwilight war' which I consider to be a newspaper in itself. It is just easier to create a topic, where several people can contribute, and where everyone can comment on the information, than a newspaper where you get no feedback and a lot more work for a small number of people (assuming people work on it constantly and regularly). Furthermore, it has been stated that people that have wanted to make newspapers, have already done so in the past, and that they aren't really inclined to do so again. I'm sure new players would try their hand at it, but there are just less 'new' players.


I'll also make my own subjective correlation causality assumption down here, since everyone seems to be doing so;

I think that there were more people starting to play BM all the time, before, because new continents were popping up. There was opportunity, challenge, without a "X-years +" battlemaster club of players ruling everything and pulling all the strings and important functions to themselves, not to mention all the ooc connections built up through the years (pretty much how it is now, and I have heard older players say as much). I think Dwilight is the least like this, in that aspect.

Yes, the best thing would be to drown two or three continents and start a new one up, which would get drowned every 2-3 real life years. To keep things dynamic.


I already added the classic standard stonewall to the post, because I'm sure everyone will shoot this down.

 NO NEW ISLANDS


Dante Silverfire

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I think that there were more people starting to play BM all the time, before, because new continents were popping up. There was opportunity, challenge, without a "X-years +" battlemaster club of players ruling everything and pulling all the strings and important functions to themselves, not to mention all the ooc connections built up through the years (pretty much how it is now, and I have heard older players say as much). I think Dwilight is the least like this, in that aspect.

Yes, the best thing would be to drown two or three continents and start a new one up, which would get drowned every 2-3 real life years. To keep things dynamic.

This is an interesting thought, and one that I tend to agree with. I believe that the stagnant nature of the old continents due to their history and long-term leadership and entrenched powerbase is what is preventing the game from growing. However, it is also the part of the game that makes Battlemaster so unique. The question is how do you treat a game that has gangrene? Do you cut part of it off and start anew or do we simply wait until the disease festers and the whole thing falls apart?

Personally, I think one clear way to revive the game's growth is to drown all the islands, and simply restart the game with a single new island. Will you lose a lot of players? Quite possibly. Is it possible that this will end up killing the game? Yes. But, in that case you've only hastened the inevitable. A lower character density WILL slowly kill this game. Personally, a long slow death doesn't seem like something that will be fun for everyone.

Even if half the playerbase leaves the game from this action, I believe it would be positive. Quite simply, you make it very easy for new players to stay and become engaged. You remove all of the history which is stagnating the game, and you open it up for new events to occur. I truly wonder how many new accounts are made each year. Is it possible that in a single year, new accounts are made equal to our current number of active players? If so, then if you could drastically increase player retention, even if you lost half of your current userbase, you could easily make it up in a year.
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Tom

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This is an unprovable assumption.

It is, but there is good evidence for it being at least partially true, some of it posted to this very topic. In addition, this was not the main reason, the main reason was bickering and fighting and hostile atmosphere.

Tom

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This seems to me like an oversimplified panicked solution which avoids real issues, based on opinions and with no statistics to support these opinions.

You don't always see it, but some of these things were discussed before and/or had been on my mind for a long time.

Dwilight especially. I've been thinking of it as a mistake for years.

Sure it has a great atmosphere. But that's not a Dwilight special, other islands had that, too.


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-The local forums are great and provide a wealth of information.

And BM is in parts a game about limited information, rumours, lies, intrigue and betrayl. I know for a fact that a couple of the stunts I pulled as ruler wouldn't have been possible with the forum around. Important information that I had carefully seeded to key persons would've made the round far too quickly and easily, making it impossible for me to trace the leak, for example, that we once had in Lasanar.


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without a "X-years +" battlemaster club of players ruling everything and pulling all the strings and important functions to themselves,

Kill them.

Seriously. You want to throw EI into chaos? Find 5-10 like-minded people, train up infiltrators and go assassinate a few important key figures all at the same time. When they heal up, assassinate them again. Repeat 2-3 times and that character is effectively out of action for a month.


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Yes, the best thing would be to drown two or three continents and start a new one up, which would get drowned every 2-3 real life years. To keep things dynamic.

Wrong game. BM is not a classic empire-building game where you start from nothing and the game is over and you've won when your base is complete. It isn't, never has been and never will be that kind of game.

You want to reset a continent? Find enough people who share that sentiment and burn it. Loot every region rogue, destroy every realm - it can be done. But it will NEVER be done by GM decree.


You are expecting in-game solutions from the dev team and that won't happen. We guide the game, we don't run it. We set the rules, not the play.

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Kill them.

Seriously. You want to throw EI into chaos? Find 5-10 like-minded people, train up infiltrators and go assassinate a few important key figures all at the same time. When they heal up, assassinate them again. Repeat 2-3 times and that character is effectively out of action for a month.

You're joking, right?

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Sure it has a great atmosphere. But that's not a Dwilight special, other islands had that, too.

Note the use of present tense for Dwilight, and past tense for other islands.

Stabbity

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Hrm. Since the locals have been locked, I have had zero interest in the forums. Kill the locals and you kill the forum essentially. Tom's assertion that information leaks to fast because of the forum is plain wrong. I've been able to track leaks, and even have been able to seed disinformation (which actually had the unintended consquence of making life difficult for a later character, and he actually was involved in discussions about and I about died laughing) and none of it has even been touched on in the forums. The local boards are great. It helps me choose new realms to play in and find other players who I find are doing interesting things.
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Vellos

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IMHO, we don't ned to sink islands: we need to freeze them. Force people to play on other continents periodically, but don't just wipe out all the history on existing continents. Reduce the number of continents in play at any given time, but don't just do a blank-slate approach.
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Perth

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Dwilight especially. I've been thinking of it as a mistake for years.

Sure it has a great atmosphere. But that's not a Dwilight special, other islands had that, too.

The only damage Dwilight has done is be so good that it makes the other continents look boring and stale.
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Geronus

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The only damage Dwilight has done is be so good that it makes the other continents look boring and stale.

That's because they are boring and stale. And that's why the player base is shrinking.

Vellos

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The only damage Dwilight has done is be so good that it makes the other continents look boring and stale.

That's because they are boring and stale. And that's why the player base is shrinking.

This. Do any survey of players by any method you like and I guarantee you Dwilight will get at worst middling reviews and usually among the best.

The consistently worst-rated continent by almost every metric is, totally unsurprisingly, Atamara.
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Dante Silverfire

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This. Do any survey of players by any method you like and I guarantee you Dwilight will get at worst middling reviews and usually among the best.

The consistently worst-rated continent by almost every metric is, totally unsurprisingly, Atamara.

That's because for all intents and purposes Atamara is now permanently locked in one diplomatic state.

The Central Federation has essentially "Won" the island. By anyone's estimate the diplomatic situation would take at least 2-3 real life years to change away from complete dominance by the Central Federation, and even then most believe it will never happen.

This could change if mortality was in place, but without it, no.

Dwilight on the other hand, has a very dynamic political atmosphere which promotes interaction.
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Eduardo Almighty

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In the end, this is all about "I have the ball and you will not play anymore..."

Because of few people and "bad atmosphere" and bickering in the Locals, all the rest would be punished because of some particular behaviors. This is like to teach a young player how to play a serious roleplaying game. You must teach them, punish them if they need, but not close everything just because of a minority screaming around and causing troubles.

I want to play and for me the Locals is just a dessert.... but a good one. Mainly the Roleplay board.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 07:46:20 AM by Eduardo Almighty »
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Tom

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Because of few people and "bad atmosphere" and bickering in the Locals, all the rest would be punished because of some particular behaviors.

"all the rest" is about a quarter of the player population. Lots of people play the game without ever looking at the forum, and about 80% of our players play the game without ever posting anything at the forum.

Having IC content on the forum splits the player population into two parts, those who know and those who don't.


That's because they are boring and stale. And that's why the player base is shrinking.

Correct. So if everyone agrees that it sucks, why does nobody change it? I'm serious. Everybody complains, but there is nothing in the game that forces this situation. Either enough people LIKE the current state, or even after 12 years, people have still not realized that history in this game happens because players make it happen. Neither sounds very believable.

So it's a stalemate. Anyone enjoy it? No? Then change it. It really is that simple. Insult your ally at a wedding and start a war over it. Accuse someone of cheating at the tournament. There's a million roleplaying reasons to start a war even with your best friend. Provided you want to.


Chenier

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"all the rest" is about a quarter of the player population. Lots of people play the game without ever looking at the forum, and about 80% of our players play the game without ever posting anything at the forum.

Having IC content on the forum splits the player population into two parts, those who know and those who don't.


Correct. So if everyone agrees that it sucks, why does nobody change it? I'm serious. Everybody complains, but there is nothing in the game that forces this situation. Either enough people LIKE the current state, or even after 12 years, people have still not realized that history in this game happens because players make it happen. Neither sounds very believable.

So it's a stalemate. Anyone enjoy it? No? Then change it. It really is that simple. Insult your ally at a wedding and start a war over it. Accuse someone of cheating at the tournament. There's a million roleplaying reasons to start a war even with your best friend. Provided you want to.

Wars are easy to start if either party really wants it. If it's just an isolated few nobles, it won't work.

In any case, I know that if I a bunch of continents were removed and my "best" choices were things like AT or EC, at best, I wouldn't make more than a drone. Those continents are too uninteresting to invest oneself in. I suspect many others would.

Having fun shouldn't be a lot of work. What AT needs is a huge conspiracy to shake things up. Not worth it. Best just sink the whole thing.
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