stopping ForumMaster from destroying BattleMaster

[Anaris]

Correct. So if everyone agrees that it sucks, why does nobody change it? I'm serious. Everybody complains, but there is nothing in the game that forces this situation. Either enough people LIKE the current state, or even after 12 years, people have still not realized that history in this game happens because players make it happen. Neither sounds very believable.

Bloody hell. Are you serious, Tom? Do you really not see?

People not realizing that "history in this game happens because players make it happen"—or, perhaps more accurately, people being a bunch of sheep who by and large just follow a very few leaders, and those leaders focusing solely on what will maintain their own power—sounds like Human Nature 101.

It is not even a tiny bit surprising to me that out of a thousand or so people, there are only a few dozen who have the interest and gumption to make real change. Nor that those dozen or so have a tendency to flock together, so that they're not spread out and able to make change in every part of the game.

Look at the way people act in the real world. Then look at the way people act in BattleMaster. Your game is a brilliant microcosm of society.

Let me put it this way: If you did, in fact, decide that Atamara was to be sunk with the players having an opportunity to do something to stop it, but did not make a general, public, and very obvious announcement, the subtle signs that to some would be clear indicators of an invasion (or the island sinking, or whatever) would be utterly ignored by many in power, because the action required to stop it would be detrimental to their power.

Y'know, just like in the real world with the slow, subtle, but inexorable force that's going to be sinking islands and reducing coastlines over the next century or three.

[jaune]

Like in the real world, at some point, something happens which shakes the balance... someone wants more power or wants to become The Big Dog.

Example Atamara, there was quite attempt to reduce this central atamaran alliance power, but it failed. Not because Central Atamara was so strong, but because rest of us sucked and we didnt want it enough. South chickened... north fumbled cause of mixed diplomacy.

But i have no doubts some day, someone will make the CE/Tara block to collapse. There are boring times, then people leave to other islands, that opens up oppurtunities to new players get in power or influence current people at power.

[Tom]

What AT needs is a huge conspiracy to shake things up.

If it needs that, then it means that a whole lot of people actually want things to remain exactly as they are.

You can't both support the status quo and whine about it. So either people like it, or they want to change it. What is it? It really is in the hands of the players. If static alliances make an island boring then NO AMOUNT OF CODING OR GM INTERFERENCE WILL SOLVE THAT.

[Tom]

those leaders focusing solely on what will maintain their own power

so there you have it. The status quo is maintained because those with the power to change it have no interest in doing so.

That has nothing to do with coding, sinking islands or any other thing we could do. Sinking an island just to "renew" is is a lot like nuking planet earth into a wasteland in order to get the corrupt politicians who have taken over out of power. It's... not strictly wrong, and it'll accomplish the goal, but it is a tiny bit excessive and it will damage the innocent most and those you want to hit least.

If you sink AT because you want to break up the mega alliance, it will re-form elsewhere.

[Anaris]

so there you have it. The status quo is maintained because those with the power to change it have no interest in doing so.

But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't change. It doesn't mean that no one on Atamara wants change.

Like I just said, all it means is that the rest of the people are sheep who are willing to be led around by their leaders. Change one charismatic leader from a stodgy stick-in-the-mud who cares only for his own power to a fighter for change....actually, change just one, and you'll pretty much get Silnaria again. The stick-in-the-muds have accumulated too much power already.

That has nothing to do with coding, sinking islands or any other thing we could do. Sinking an island just to "renew" is is a lot like nuking planet earth into a wasteland in order to get the corrupt politicians who have taken over out of power. It's... not strictly wrong, and it'll accomplish the goal, but it is a tiny bit excessive and it will damage the innocent most and those you want to hit least.

I don't fully disagree. I don't think that sinking Atamara is the best answer to its stagnation. However, if you're already thinking about sinking one or more continents, I think it behooves you to at least seriously consider sinking the continent that, by all the measures we've done, has the lowest engagement, as well as the highest character count (and second highest player count, by a very small margin).

Yes, people will leave. But that's true no matter which continent you sink. And wouldn't it be better to have a higher chance of improving the density on all other continents to a really enjoyable level, while at the same time removing the continent that, again, produces the most drones and the least creativity, and has the political situation that pretty much everyone agrees is most likely to remain stagnant for a very long time?

If you sink AT because you want to break up the mega alliance, it will re-form elsewhere.

No. Another alliance may form elsewhere, but the alliance on AT cannot simply be remade anywhere else, any more than the unique cultures you find on Dwilight could simply be transplanted to another island. It is too dependent on its own history and geography.

I think you view BattleMaster as being a little too homogeneous, Tom. The various realms and islands are not just easily-replaceable cogs. If you destroy one island, the situation that exists on that island at that time will not simply spring into being on another island within a few weeks. Not even within a year. The people will scatter. The powerful realms will lose their power. In many cases, the double-characters that bind realms together inseparably will not be able to do so anymore because the island they've moved to already has one of that player's characters on it, in a completely different position. Or they've moved to Dwilight, which cannot have double-characters.

Tom, I think a big part of the disconnect we're seeing here is that you haven't been playing the game for a while (at least, not that I know of!), and haven't seen how things really are on the ground. You're only really able to make observations of the forums and the statistics. And we all know perfectly well that you hated forums from the get-go, which, no matter how flexible you are, is going to give you some bias in your observations against the forums. Similarly with Dwilight. And the EC and Atamara are two of the earliest continents in BattleMaster—it's not at all surprising that you're going to have some bias towards them. You've even come right out and said that you won't sink the EC because "it is BattleMaster".

Well, frankly, Tom, the EC hasn't been BattleMaster for a long time now. BattleMaster has been changing over the past nearly decade-and-a-half, in ways you couldn't have foreseen, and in some ways I don't think you've really been following. And that's wonderful, and amazing, but it does mean that your view of the game isn't as accurate as it was six years ago when I joined the dev team.

If you're not willing to listen to the people on the forums because we're just a small subset of the game, then don't just act on your opinion, because you're even less representative of the game than we are right now. Vellos and I have been developing a set of surveys that should help to gauge interest and engagement across a variety of different criteria, and once I finish rewriting the cleanup script (which is my top priority just now), I hope to be able to get those ready to go, and start gathering actual data on all this stuff.

So if you won't listen to us, then wait for the data. Then we can all see what people really think.

[Geronus]

That has nothing to do with coding, sinking islands or any other thing we could do. Sinking an island just to "renew" is is a lot like nuking planet earth into a wasteland in order to get the corrupt politicians who have taken over out of power. It's... not strictly wrong, and it'll accomplish the goal, but it is a tiny bit excessive and it will damage the innocent most and those you want to hit least.

You do realize the irony here, right? The exact same metaphor applies to suddenly and arbitrarily shutting down the Local board on the forum just because a few people happen to be dicks. Meanwhile, the majority who generally abide by the rules and enjoy the Local board end up getting hurt.

[jaune]

It's not only the dicks because it was shut down... it was also shut down to keep things in game.

To keep me away from recruiting OOCLY people to join Darka to keep news about invading armies of CE through X region info ingame. So Darkans would not know they are getting there... To keep character arguing in game, instead of arguing in forums player vs. player...

But i guess all these could be avoided by more violent moderation.

[egamma]

Correct. So if everyone agrees that it sucks, why does nobody change it?

Because I can simply stop playing on AT and play on another continent; which is exactly what I did, despite having a decent lordship and even a place on a military council.

[Lorgan]

You're never going to be able to stop alliances from dominating an island. It's what happens to every alliance that's successful for long enough. People don't like breaking up a winning team.

I agree with Tom that the only solution to this is to kill them. I however don't think that it is realistic considering that infiltrators are weak and would need their chances turned up by around 5000% before they could actually successfully be a drive of political change on continents. Rulers are rich, they have big units. It's already near impossible to stab a guy with a unit and get away with it, let stand one with a BIG unit. And if you try and you fail, you get banned. You won't try again unless you want to get executed and if you get executed you can go and spend another year in the academy before you'll be able to try again.
This is the reason why bounties don't or barely work and it's the reason why there's no such thing as infiltrator guilds anymore. Infils are simply too weak.

[Tom]

just because a few people happen to be dicks.

That was not the reason at all, just an additional plus point.

[vonGenf]

This is the reason why bounties don't or barely work

Another, bigger reason (IMNSHO) is that gold has become really, really cheap. It used to be that someone walking around with a 1'500 gold bounty on his head was in real danger because 1'500 gold was a lot of money that was needed to train and win wars. Now? Meh, it's easier to get a lordship and rack in the dough. Infils used to kill for fun and profit, now it's just for fun. It's still fun at least, but it makes the bounty board much less relevant.

[Geronus]

It is, but there is good evidence for it being at least partially true, some of it posted to this very topic. In addition, this was not the main reason, the main reason was bickering and fighting and hostile atmosphere.

That was not the reason at all, just an additional plus point.

Well then which is it? I feel like you're contradicting yourself. Was the main reason you removed the Local board because people were being mean to each other, or was it something else?

[feyeleanor]

But what percent of the stuff posted in Locals previously was posted specifically because the Locals board provided an opportunity for people to talk with people outside their realm?

That's pretty much the reason why I dip into the forum - to get to talk with players in other realms, hear interesting gossip and get a better feel for what's happening across the islands I play in.

[Dante Silverfire]

so there you have it. The status quo is maintained because those with the power to change it have no interest in doing so.

That has nothing to do with coding, sinking islands or any other thing we could do. Sinking an island just to "renew" is is a lot like nuking planet earth into a wasteland in order to get the corrupt politicians who have taken over out of power. It's... not strictly wrong, and it'll accomplish the goal, but it is a tiny bit excessive and it will damage the innocent most and those you want to hit least.

If you sink AT because you want to break up the mega alliance, it will re-form elsewhere.

Tom, I simply have to say that your statements seem to indicate that you have zero clue about what is actually taking place on Atamara. Getting the "corrupt politicians" although a better term is just "entrenched leaders" is quite literally the ONLY thing that will ever change Atamara's future. Unless the leaders of CE, Tara, Talerium, and Strombran are somehow removed via deletion, pausing, or being forcibly removed, the political atmosphere on Atamara will NEVER change at this point.

There is simply zero impetus by anyone in those realms to want change, and it is ONLY the people in those realms that have any power to control the situation at this point. Have everyone else team up against them and try and kill them? It's already been tried, and failed. Then, you have to figure that the leaders of two of those realms have probably been rulers of their realms for a combined total time of 10+ real life years. With clear friends and allies amongst the other ones who would never betray them.

As the person who can honestly claim to be the single largest impetus for trying to change this situation against all odds in the past year, I can guarantee you that it is not going to happen. It doesn't matter if over 50% of the players on the continent want that change. It WILL NOT HAPPEN. Even ignoring the fact that I'd say at least 50% of the characters on Atamara are sheep.

I am willing to bet thousands of dollars that Atamara's situation will not change over the next two real life years. That is how confident I am. It is not as easy or as simple as you think. And neither is it good for the game just because people aren't changing it.

All I see from this discussion is a giant disconnect between what you perceive and what I have experienced in the game over the past few years. And it is that above all else which I think may be killing this game if it is causing you to be unwilling to even listen to what myself and others here are trying to tell you. I have put forth hundreds of hours trying to change the situation on Atamara, and sent thousands upon thousands of letters in the course of that time. Things are not as simple as they appear.

[Geronus]

Maybe we should split this topic so we can keep this one focused on the forum and have another one about the player density problem. They're sort of related in the sense that this whole debate is becoming about the overall decline of the game and how to rejuvenate it, but I'm not sure it's helpful to mash everything together in this thread... Especially since I'd still like to convince Tom to reconsider his decision about the Local boards.