Author Topic: stopping ForumMaster from destroying BattleMaster  (Read 132242 times)

Tom

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Well then which is it? I feel like you're contradicting yourself. Was the main reason you removed the Local board because people were being mean to each other, or was it something else?

There's an entire topic on the reason. Oh wait, it is this very topic. Please read it, the first 2 pages should be enough to clear up where that came from.

Tom

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Getting the "corrupt politicians"

And here I was thinking that the insertion of planet earth into that sentence would make it obvious I'm not talking about the player characters, but drawing a comparison to illustrate a point.

Please don't try to intentionally misunderstand what I'm writing, ok? I don't have time for that !@#$, the only thing it will get you is me leaving the conversation.



Tom

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It doesn't matter if over 50% of the players on the continent want that change.

So basically, you are saying that the majority, or something very close to a majority (i.e. the OTHER 50%) are perfectly happy with the situation? Well, then a vote to shake everything up would also fail to get a majority, right? So basically you are asking the dev team to destroy the game of half the players because of a vocal minority, yes?

I'm not happy with AT, don't get me wrong. But we have come a very long way from the initial claims that almost everyone on AT is unhappy and wants it to change, haven't we?

Anaris

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So basically, you are saying that the majority, or something very close to a majority (i.e. the OTHER 50%) are perfectly happy with the situation? Well, then a vote to shake everything up would also fail to get a majority, right? So basically you are asking the dev team to destroy the game of half the players because of a vocal minority, yes?

I'm not happy with AT, don't get me wrong. But we have come a very long way from the initial claims that almost everyone on AT is unhappy and wants it to change, haven't we?

I think you're equating "wants that change" with "is open about their desire for change, willing to work for it, and not worried about what other people will say or do to him."

Furthermore, I think you're the one who is, in this case, guilty of interpreting overly narrowly.

I would be willing to bet that most of the nobles inside the CE block would not welcome a breakup of that block and the destruction of its power, so as to allow every realm on the continent to once again have agency of its own.

However, I would also be willing to bet that if such a change did come about, at least 80% of those nobles would, after all the dust had settled, rate their enjoyment of the continent as higher than before. Because being inside a stagnant behemoth realm is rarely significantly better than fighting against a stagnant behemoth realm. Opportunity for advancement tends to be thin on the ground, and most nobles are expected to be drones.

And, again—and this point cannot be stressed enough—most players are sheep. If their ruler says, "This is what you want," and you then ask them what they want, they will say exactly what their ruler told them they wanted. That doesn't mean that we, as devs and GMs, should listen to them when the players of the largest realm on the continent say they want it to remain supreme.

I've seen you rail against politicians and the sheep who elect them on Slashdot. Yet you seem not to realize that the exact same conditions obtain in BattleMaster.
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Geronus

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There's an entire topic on the reason. Oh wait, it is this very topic. Please read it, the first 2 pages should be enough to clear up where that came from.

Not really. I've heard several reasons thrown out, and it's not all that clear which one is the most important to you. It's also not like there's broad agreement on this even from the people who agree that the forums pose a problem. Here are the main reasons that have been given so far (by various people), as I see them:

1. There's too much bickering and negative interaction.

2. People are sharing too much IC information OOC.

3. Effort that goes into the forum takes away from effort that would otherwise go into the game.

4. (Related to the previous point) People feel like they must participate in the forum when they shouldn't have to.

In your response to my PM, you cited a form of point number 3, leading me to believe that it was what concerned you most. Then, just now, you said point number 1 was the main reason you closed the Local boards. The reason I want to understand is that, obviously, I oppose the decision.

Points 1 and 2 can be dealt with by better moderation, to the extent that they are problems at all. There's no evidence for point 3, and I don't think you're going to get the desired result out of this action (that people suddenly start to put all the effort they were putting into the forum into the game). Point 4, well I don't know what to say about that. Why should people feel like they have to participate? It's a forum for discussion about a shared interest. As you've pointed out, only a fraction of the community participates. Since the majority that doesn't seems to be doing just fine, I don't know why anyone would come to this conclusion. It's not the like the frequent forum-goers are running everything in the game; far from it. Most of the big-shot rulers on established islands hardly ever post here if they've ever come here at all. Clearly the forum is not a key to success in Battlemaster.

I guess I'm just unhappy that you've taken away something I enjoy, for reasons that seem to me to be rather arbitrary. It seems unjust to do that just because some people, what, don't like it? Then they don't have to come here. If I don't enjoy Battlemaster, I'll stop playing. If they don't like the forum, they can stop reading it. I don't see what's so hard about that.

Vellos

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Tom,

Most players on Atamara would have more fun if their realms could have a littl more independent agency.

However, they are having enough fun now not to want to destroy their realms' chance at total victory/mere survival to shake things up. If a CE duke seceded, even if he wants to, it'd be terrible for CE and be a big setback to them winning Battlemaster. Hence why we've had Magistrate-case-level hostility directed at the ONE player who actually did try to shake things up, and why CE established a policy of getting island-wide expulsions for their political foes: because they're bent on winning Battlemaster on Atamara. AND THEY'RE DAMN CLOSE TO DOING IT. To which I say: impressive, most impressive. Well done, CE.

But it isn't good for BM. It makes the continent a pit for inactivity and unengaged playing. I have a powerful character with strong RP reasons to do some rabble-rousing on Atamara. Instead, I sit and collect gold. Why? Because there is no gain from causing a ruckus. None. And that's the position EVERYONE is in. We're in a situation where every powerful player has sufficient power to prevent anyone beneath them from toppling them, but can't plausibly increase their power very much. There are a few exceptions, but, overall, not really. Keep in mind that CE's treaty in Eston actually forced us to play Peacemaster for months on end. We're basically forced to twiddle our thumbs or be destroyed.

Now maybe you want to say, "Oh, your fault: you COULD choose destruction!" Sure. Yea. You're right Tom, we could. We could also all become infiltrators and train at the academy for years to engage in idiotic assassinations of other characters. That sounds like a blast. Not.

Battlemaster thrives on dynamism. Atamara is not dynamic, not because of some geographic fundamental reason, but because of the political structures players have created. Again, I don't like the idea of sinking a continent. I like freezing them. But if you must sink one, Atamara is the obvious choice.

Or you can do what Tim said and WAIT FOR ACTUAL DATA PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Because frankly we're all just bull!@#$ting here about our pretty well unfounded opinions, and here in a few weeks (months? Guess the timetable depends on Tim, then however much processing is needed to sort out the relevant trends) we'll have some solid data about what the whole player base, not just people on the forum, think. SO WAIT FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.
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Tom

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Don't think I don't agree with all of you that the game needs more change, more wars, more chaos. I do.

We disagree about how to get it. You think that we GMs have some magic switch we can push and it'll happen. And I say it won't. On the contrary, the large stable power blocks will be the ones left standing when the dust settles. Just like the rich in the real world are almost always the ones who suffer the least from famine, war or plague.


Vellos

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Don't think I don't agree with all of you that the game needs more change, more wars, more chaos. I do.

We disagree about how to get it. You think that we GMs have some magic switch we can push and it'll happen. And I say it won't. On the contrary, the large stable power blocks will be the ones left standing when the dust settles. Just like the rich in the real world are almost always the ones who suffer the least from famine, war or plague.



Do I hear you saying you want feature requests for ways to incentivize power blocs to break up?
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Qyasogk

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You think that we GMs have some magic switch we can push and it'll happen. And I say it won't. On the contrary, the large stable power blocks will be the ones left standing when the dust settles.

You are very good at correctly pointing out that players are in the drivers seat. To the extent that a kingdom is strong stable and boring is a testament to how that kingdom is run by its rulers. GIVEN.

--BUT--

It does seem like you don't acknowledge the massive amount of responsibility that you ALSO have, in creating the rules and process of Battlemaster. To the extent that a system is volatile or stable is VERY much under your control. To the extent that you've reduced volatility and unpredictability into the system (almost no player deaths, very weak monster/undead hordes, lots of costs and obstacles to upset a kingdom, not a lot of costs to keep one together, etc...)

With all the talk on medieval role playing, its shocking that no one has implemented a "marriage" function in the game. So much medieval politics comes down to who's married to who, who wants to be married to who, who has a first born son, etc. BM has none of those dynamics.

In the war of ForumMaster vs BattleMaster, you've clearly picked a side by murdering the Local boards, and BM now is wounded as a result.

It's super heavy handed, and I'm not sure you're really grasping what kind of damage you're already doing.

I too was one of those people that when I first looked at BM I had no idea wtf I was suppose to do. And I've read Game of Thrones, I've been a DM in a D&D game, I've LARPed, etc... I should've have some familiarity but BM was almost completely opaque and not at all friendly to outsiders. Reading the stories about what was going on in the forums was ultimately the way I got drawn in and was able to chose an island to start. Otherwise I was just choosing blind. Playing as an adventurer could be one of the awesomest parts of the game, but its clearly underdeveloped (ignored even) and it shows.


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I would be willing to bet that most of the nobles inside the CE block would not welcome a breakup of that block and the destruction of its power, so as to allow every realm on the continent to once again have agency of its own.

However, I would also be willing to bet that if such a change did come about, at least 80% of those nobles would, after all the dust had settled, rate their enjoyment of the continent as higher than before. Because being inside a stagnant behemoth realm is rarely significantly better than fighting against a stagnant behemoth realm. Opportunity for advancement tends to be thin on the ground, and most nobles are expected to be drones.

And, again—and this point cannot be stressed enough—most players are sheep. If their ruler says, "This is what you want," and you then ask them what they want, they will say exactly what their ruler told them they wanted. That doesn't mean that we, as devs and GMs, should listen to them when the players of the largest realm on the continent say they want it to remain supreme.

I've seen you rail against politicians and the sheep who elect them on Slashdot. Yet you seem not to realize that the exact same conditions obtain in BattleMaster.

Your advocating that the block be broken up? If so then let the other side prove their own worth and break it up. It didn't get there because of the Dev or Gms bring it about it got there because players used their characters wisely and pushed and shoved and made it that way. 

Sheep? CE? I think your missing something, CE's nobility is not following aimlessly, the senate speaks vocally whether for or against things, takes 3-5 days to decide anything amidst the arguing. Knights even have a say if they choose to speak up. We have plenty of fun and enjoy rping when we get the opportunity. Being a republic it has had a constant revolving door in terms of leadership, not one person has held it for a extended period of time unlike Tara, BoM (Lich King), and Darka. Can you blame a fun realm that has active players who are influential?

Everyone rags on AT, you know what do more than talk. Actually make waves and rattle a few chains. Honestly, if not get off the subject its become so redundant.
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LilWolf

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Getting the "corrupt politicians" although a better term is just "entrenched leaders" is quite literally the ONLY thing that will ever change Atamara's future. Unless the leaders of CE, Tara, Talerium, and Strombran are somehow removed via deletion, pausing, or being forcibly removed, the political atmosphere on Atamara will NEVER change at this point.

As someone playing in Darka, I'd be pretty disappointed if the GM's stepped in and decided to do something to break up the CE block. I'm also less than convinced the situation is as horrible and hopeless as you make it out to be. Did Merlin get treated badly? Yup. Was some of it his own fault? Damn right. He made some serious mistakes in his diplomacy and how he presented things and how he reacted to certain things.

Look, you seem to think putting hundreds of hours into getting change will mean you succeed. It just doesn't work that way. You have to actually do the right things. Merlin did not do the right things. He had a history weighing him down, he made poor choices and moved too quickly. Had Silnaria been ruled by anyone else but Merlin, the realm would probably be fine.

Now, that doesn't mean someone else can't succeed where he tried. You completely dismiss the chance of the rest of the island ganging up on CE and friends because it failed once. That's the situation Abington, Minas Ithil and Falasan were in many years ago, but they kept trying. And then suddenly Tara was a single city realm and Eston lost half its lands. It has happened before and it will happen again. The mighty will get toned down when people have enough of it.
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Your advocating that the block be broken up? If so then let the other side prove their own worth and break it up. It didn't get there because of the Dev or Gms bring it about it got there because players used their characters wisely and pushed and shoved and made it that way. 

Sheep? CE? I think your missing something, CE's nobility is not following aimlessly, the senate speaks vocally whether for or against things, takes 3-5 days to decide anything amidst the arguing. Knights even have a say if they choose to speak up. We have plenty of fun and enjoy rping when we get the opportunity. Being a republic it has had a constant revolving door in terms of leadership, not one person has held it for a extended period of time unlike Tara, BoM (Lich King), and Darka. Can you blame a fun realm that has active players who are influential?

Everyone rags on AT, you know what do more than talk. Actually make waves and rattle a few chains. Honestly, if not get off the subject its become so redundant.

Have you been hiding under a rock? Were you not there when ALL the realms besides Talerium, Tara, CE, and Coria teamed up against the CE block? We've tried this.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 07:24:01 AM by Gustav Kuriga »

Dante Silverfire

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As someone playing in Darka, I'd be pretty disappointed if the GM's stepped in and decided to do something to break up the CE block. I'm also less than convinced the situation is as horrible and hopeless as you make it out to be. Did Merlin get treated badly? Yup. Was some of it his own fault? Damn right. He made some serious mistakes in his diplomacy and how he presented things and how he reacted to certain things.

Look, you seem to think putting hundreds of hours into getting change will mean you succeed. It just doesn't work that way. You have to actually do the right things. Merlin did not do the right things. He had a history weighing him down, he made poor choices and moved too quickly. Had Silnaria been ruled by anyone else but Merlin, the realm would probably be fine.

Now, that doesn't mean someone else can't succeed where he tried. You completely dismiss the chance of the rest of the island ganging up on CE and friends because it failed once. That's the situation Abington, Minas Ithil and Falasan were in many years ago, but they kept trying. And then suddenly Tara was a single city realm and Eston lost half its lands. It has happened before and it will happen again. The mighty will get toned down when people have enough of it.

I'm not advocating for GM's breaking up the CE bloc. I'm advocating for the GM's to put in place a situation that allows for a dynamic environment.

Any situation as time goes on will seek a stable equilibrium point. As time has gone on, the CE bloc has built a stable powerbase which won't be disrupted without outside intervention. This isn't about good/bad/ whatever, it is about the ideal that over time things will become stable. Raising monster and undead spawns to high levels won't directly disrupt the CE bloc, but it will make a situation where if people wanted to disrupt it, there is a chance that they could. Not that it will happen, but that it could happen.

You are in Darka. You may not see a problem with things, but that is also because you're in the single most powerful realm on the continent. You are the only realm whose distance from CE and military strength allows themselves the ability to do what they want. But, even still you are restricted. The only thing you can do is fight CE or ally with them. You can't be part of a third party conflict.
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There is an undue focus on CE. If CE, it's allies and Darka weren't dominant, than some other group of realms would be. As Qyasogk and Dante note, there is a lack of unpredictability to this game. There is nothing to knock down power structures except bigger power structures, which cannot be form under existing power structures. Power structures can only form at the beginning of maps, when there is a vacuum to be filled. Essentially maps begin with a scramble for dominance and end with with a status quo. Once the scramble is over, the map is finished. This is it what happened on Atamara, as well Colonies and East Continent.

There is only one method for prolonging this game beyond the initial scrambles, without introducing destabilising features into the core game play, and that is to routinely switch up the map pool. This method has been shot down, and there is not enough support to code destabilising features, so, unless those things change, there will be no future for this game. Deleting random islands and shoving all of the players together won't accomplish anything, except to temporarily ease character density. Deleting the forums won't do anything either, as the forums have nothing to do with this game's longevity. The methods being considered will be ineffectual.

m2rt

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There is an undue focus on CE. If CE, it's allies and Darka weren't dominant, than some other group of realms would be. As Qyasogk and Dante note, there is a lack of unpredictability to this game. There is nothing to knock down power structures except bigger power structures, which cannot be form under existing power structures. Power structures can only form at the beginning of maps, when there is a vacuum to be filled. Essentially maps begin with a scramble for dominance and end with with a status quo. Once the scramble is over, the map is finished. This is it what happened on Atamara, as well Colonies and East Continent.

There is only one method for prolonging this game beyond the initial scrambles, without introducing destabilising features into the core game play, and that is to routinely switch up the map pool. This method has been shot down, and there is not enough support to code destabilising features, so, unless those things change, there will be no future for this game. Deleting random islands and shoving all of the players together won't accomplish anything, except to temporarily ease character density. Deleting the forums won't do anything either, as the forums have nothing to do with this game's longevity. The methods being considered will be ineffectual.

I completely disagree! No map is finished... Look at how much Atamara has changed. Dont forget that Coria was/is in the CE block too. So not only the north has changed. Sooner or later there will be more changes. And we as players are the only people that should make the changes happen.

As soon as game features/GMs interfere more with the game, I will quit this game. I already see some of the features limiting the game. Make a new island (war islands) if you want resets. But resetting a place where I have built fictional history for 7 years makes sure that I have no ties and can quit without hesitation.

But that all is off topic. The topic was about forums. Delete it and some other place will fill the void and the circle is even smaller than it is now. OOC communication and discussion will not end. Atleast the forum is public and people have to consider their thoughts a bit more than in IM conversations.