Author Topic: stopping ForumMaster from destroying BattleMaster  (Read 132163 times)

Geronus

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Okay. Understood. They go with the flow. Does it mean that their opinion will not count when you take any game survey or something like that?

Of course not. That's why the idea of the survey is important - the people who post here are far from representative.

I agree that focusing too much on CE is beside the point. I originally mentioned it because Atamara is the stable island I have played on the longest, so it's the one I'm most familiar with. The only reason I brought it up was because I was looking for an example of an established power structure that's too entrenched now to shake up, but I should have known better.

We really should focus more on the question of the forum.

Tom

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And it is the arguing that is the cause.

I think the last page or two perfectly illustrates the point and is a better explanation for the closing of the Locals boards than I could ever put into words. This is the exact kind of bickering that is destroying the friendly atmosphere the game once had.

So, please stop it from poisoning this thread. The point has been made, any and all future posts containing references to CE will be mercilessly deleted. Yes, even if they contain other content. Yes, even if they contain the proof for Riemanns Hypothesis.

Vellos

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This is the exact kind of bickering that is destroying the friendly atmosphere the game once had.


I'm sorry, I remember the D-List as well as anyone: it was not friendly. It was a hostile place with an extremely low tolerance for new voices where golden oldies commanded a massive influence. Sure it was nice for the club at the top, but for those of us who were mostly new players at the time when the D-List was at its height, it was not the friendly place you seem to be remembering.
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Wolfsong

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Just checked the Digest Daily Discuss Digest for 2009. Found an email about multiplaying, where I discussed strategies for cheating and asked about ways to prevent it/what was illegal and what wasn't. Response: "I don’t for a minute believe anyone has that many friends that would stick around long enough for anyone to pull this off."


Ahahahahaha.

To stay on topic, though:

I hate IRC. I hate it more than forums, because you can at least police forums. IRC, it's a lot more dicey - you get people forming their own little branch chats, excluding others, discussing IC plans for invasions and weddings and what not, building up relationships that should be done ICly that are entirely orchestrated OOCly. And it's almost impossible to police perfectly because mods can't be on it all the time, and the messages aren't easily (to my understanding)  logged.

Forums, the most you get are some people whining about each other, and then getting their posts deleted by moderators, and then whining about that.

So if we're going to get rid of the local forums, or forums, or whatever - you'd be better served getting rid of the IRC, too. It's an exclusive old boy's club where people orchestrate wars, not-wars, and other things behind the scenes.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 01:31:22 AM by Wolfsong »

Anaris

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So if we're going to get rid of the local forums, or forums, or whatever - you'd be better served getting rid of the IRC, too. It's an exclusive old boy's club where people orchestrate wars, not-wars, and other things behind the scenes.

To the extent that you are right, IRC is like drugs.

You can't stop people from using drugs. You can ban them, and try to prevent people from buying, selling or importing them, but you're never going to be able to stop it completely.

Similarly, if people want to communicate OOC and hatch plots there, it's impossible to stop them. You're far, far better off creating a place where not only is everyone in the game welcome and invited (heck, it's linked right there on the left of your family page), but it has at least a quasi-official status, and thus can be somewhat regulated under the Social Contract.

And, frankly, if it were such an old boys' club, those of us who have, in fact, been there since 2004 or earlier wouldn't be so enthusiastic about trying to get more people to use it. Old boys' clubs are all about forming a clique and then trying to keep other people out.

So, basically, if IRC were really all the bad things you say, then the very worst thing we could do would be to try to get rid of it. All that would accomplish would be to crystallize the "old boys' club" in its current form and restrict it to only the diehard IRCers.
Timothy Collett

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Wolfsong

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Similarly, if people want to communicate OOC and hatch plots [...] it's impossible to stop them. You're far, far better off creating a place where not only is everyone in the game welcome and invited [...] but it has at least a quasi-official status, and thus can be somewhat regulated under the Social Contract.

Anaris

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Similarly, if people want to communicate OOC and hatch plots [...] it's impossible to stop them. You're far, far better off creating a place where not only is everyone in the game welcome and invited [...] but it has at least a quasi-official status, and thus can be somewhat regulated under the Social Contract.

OK...yeah, that's what I said. I'm not sure what your purpose is in selectively quoting like that. Unless you somehow think that you're making a point that we should create such a place that's not IRC. Which...doesn't make a lot of sense, because there are already dozens of players who use IRC on a regular basis. Any attempt to create a separate venue would not prevent the IRCers from continuing to do everything they do there, and would leave the new venue without an established base of long-time players to help new players find their way around.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Wolfsong

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My point is that the forums are more easily regulated than the IRC, and are a better place for communicating and welcoming new players, old players, etc., - and yet the forums are what's under fire here, unjustly, while the IRC is held up as some bizarre gold standard. Your argument for keeping the IRC works just as well, if not better, for keeping the forums intact. If you're going to axe the forums, the IRC needs to be axed as well for promoting the same behavior. Otherwise, keep them both and regulate/moderate what you can.

Anaris

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My point is that the forums are more easily regulated than the IRC, and are a better place for communicating and welcoming new players, old players, etc., - and yet the forums are what's under fire here, unjustly, while the IRC is held up as some bizarre gold standard.

I...don't feel that that's the case. As I understand it, Tom dislikes IRC about as much as you do. People (like me) have been pointing out IRC's good points, but no more so than they have been doing for the forum.

Quote
Your argument for keeping the IRC works just as well, if not better, for keeping the forums intact. If you're going to axe the forums, the IRC needs to be axed as well for promoting the same behavior. Otherwise, keep them both and regulate/moderate what you can.

I don't want to axe the forums. I think Tom's overreacting, largely due to preconceived notions and confirmation bias. However, whatever you do to the forums, my point is that IRC cannot be "axed". It's just not possible, because it's not something that Tom controls. The link can be removed from the left bar, but all that will do is prevent new players from being able to get to it as easily. It will not stop the IRC regulars—the "old boys", as you call us—from going there and continuing to hang out with our friends.

Or, in my case, at least, from trying to help some new devs get up to speed so that we might be able to see improvement in the game at more than a glacial pace.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Penchant

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And human communication is in part down because people have taken it to the forums. Even if just 20% of the stuff posted in locals previous can be directed back into the game again, that will noticeably increase the number of messages posted there, which in turn might bring people like you to add to it again, increasing communication in-game further.
That is simply not going to happen for the same reason that several have already said, many do what they are going to do IG, like my self, and if we have time still we go on the forums.
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Perth

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Even from my own perspective, as someone who's known this game since 2005 or so, I care nothing for the so-called history that you and Tom preach. A sense of history, like that of any fantasy setting, is of course important. But that sense is functionally the same whether it's based on eleven years of game play, just two, or entirely made up. It's not like the game world would seem any less fleshed out if it were younger.

You make a good point.

The continent with the best sense or atmosphere, creativity, and sense of history is actually the youngest continent.... Dwilight. Not the oldies.
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Tom

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My point is that the forums are more easily regulated than the IRC, and are a better place for communicating and welcoming new players, old players, etc., - and yet the forums are what's under fire here, unjustly, while the IRC is held up as some bizarre gold standard.

No, it isn't, at least not by me. But the forums I control. IRC I don't. So how exactly would I shut down an IRC channel? Can't.

Kai

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I hate the forums but I don't think there's much happening that didn't already happen and this all seems like looking for something to blame. Insult deleted by moderator
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 07:21:30 AM by egamma »

Sarwell

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Maybe my own biases are just keeping me from seeing it, but I'm not seeing this game-destroying ForumMaster Tom and the other powers-that-be are talking about. I'm just seeing a forum. I have yet to have my game experience damaged by the forum, and cases where that occurred, while hardly actionable anyway in the numbers I see them, are better remedied by better moderation than closing down entire, and highly active, forums because OMG PPL ARE MIXING OOC AND IC TEH END OF TEH WORLD. As mentioned before, the players who are detrimental to the game through the forum - the gossipers, information-leakers, and so forth - will just find new, unregulated, outlets for their discussion (IRC, other forums, and so on).
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Wolfang

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You have to admit though, the title is hilariously dramatic  :D

But seriously, Tom, why don't you just implement moderators on the locals...?