stopping ForumMaster from destroying BattleMaster

[egamma]

You have to admit though, the title is hilariously dramatic 

But seriously, Tom, why don't you just implement moderators on the locals...?

We did moderate the locals. But people hardly ever reported posts, and I'm not going to read all 6 continents when I only play on 3. And we didn't have clear guidelines on what is allowed, and what is not. if someone posts and IC letter, is that allowed? What if it was sent to the entire island? What if it was sent to a single person? What if it was in IC insult, should we moderate it? What if someone gets offended by an IC insult being posted, and replies OOC? etc, etc.

No. If the players can't restrain themselves, then their toys will be taken away. I have kids, and when they break the rules, they get their toys taken away.

[Anaris]

No. If the players can't restrain themselves, then their toys will be taken away. I have kids, and when they break the rules, they get their toys taken away.

Which would be more of a reasonable analogy, if there had actually been rules that were being broken that caused the Locals to be removed.

You said yourself, there weren't clear guidelines. That doesn't mean we should close the subforum, that means we should make clear guidelines!

Then, if people still can't comport themselves well, and moderation doesn't help, we can close down the subforum.

[Wolfang]

We did moderate the locals. But people hardly ever reported posts, and I'm not going to read all 6 continents when I only play on 3. And we didn't have clear guidelines on what is allowed, and what is not. if someone posts and IC letter, is that allowed? What if it was sent to the entire island? What if it was sent to a single person? What if it was in IC insult, should we moderate it? What if someone gets offended by an IC insult being posted, and replies OOC? etc, etc.

No. If the players can't restrain themselves, then their toys will be taken away. I have kids, and when they break the rules, they get their toys taken away.

I never said I thought moderators were necessary, as I don't think there is anything wrong, and most people didn't either, since as you say nothing was reported. No one has yet shown what type of  'rude' or 'IC' posts the action was taken for, which you would describe as kids 'not restraining themselves'?

I also suggested several times that moderators should be appointed for every local, I am not critiquing the way you are working, or trying to give you more work. I'm sure there's people willing to moderate.

Concerning rules on how to moderate, it'd be up to moderators' sound jugement what is and what shouldn't be allowed to be posted on the forums.

[egamma]

I never said I thought moderators were necessary, as I don't think there is anything wrong, and most people didn't either, since as you say nothing was reported. No one has yet shown what type of  'rude' or 'IC' posts the action was taken for, which you would describe as kids 'not restraining themselves'?

I also suggested several times that moderators should be appointed for every local, I am not critiquing the way you are working, or trying to give you more work. I'm sure there's people willing to moderate.

Concerning rules on how to moderate, it'd be up to moderators' sound jugement what is and what shouldn't be allowed to be posted on the forums.

There are Magistrate cases referencing things posted to the local forums. Multiple--I think 3. If that doesn't suggest something was seriously wrong with them, I don't know what would. And it is misleading to think there wasn't anything wrong ever posted--I think it would be fair to say that 95% of the moderating that we did do, was done in the locals. Most of the evidence is gone, along with the locals, but I have these:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4420.0.html
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4430.msg112697.html#msg112697 (although the posts containing the insults were deleted, they are quoted in this post)
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3908.0.html (ditto)

When the call went out for moderators, very few answered that call. What makes you think that has changed? We never had a moderator for every single board; you can see my name on two of the boards from before I was made global moderator. If you want to be a moderator, by all means, send Tom an email (@lemuria.org).

[Anaris]

There are Magistrate cases referencing things posted to the local forums. Multiple--I think 3. If that doesn't suggest something was seriously wrong with them, I don't know what would. And it is misleading to think there wasn't anything wrong ever posted--I think it would be fair to say that 95% of the moderating that we did do, was done in the locals.

I have a very hard time believing that these cases would have been any better without the local boards.

These were cases of people who were simply harassing their victims in every venue open to them. The fact that the local boards were one of those venues doesn't indicate that they cause problems; it just means that people who cause problems were willing to abuse them to do so that little bit more.

[Penchant]

There are Magistrate cases referencing things posted to the local forums. Multiple--I think 3. If that doesn't suggest something was seriously wrong with them, I don't know what would. And it is misleading to think there wasn't anything wrong ever posted--I think it would be fair to say that 95% of the moderating that we did do, was done in the locals. Most of the evidence is gone, along with the locals, but I have these:

Nearly 40% of all forums posts are also done in the locals which is a real statistic unlike your made up one which makes the locals the largest board by a lot, like 30k posts a lot so there is a reason for there to be more moderating done there than any other board. Also considering there are 43k posts in that board and only three times were the local board used in a Magistrates Case, it actually surprises me the number is so small.

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4420.0.html
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4430.msg112697.html#msg112697 (although the posts containing the insults were deleted, they are quoted in this post)
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3908.0.html (ditto)

First Case, the forums were a small part of the problem because the offender used several venues thus the local's board is not the source of the case simply another place the offender did wrong actions.

Second Case, same thing, a very small part of the case was of the forums and was not the source of the case simply another venue.

Third Case, is similar to the first two although a bit more of it was on the forums but at the same time that conversation could have happened on IRC just as easily.

That's not really convincing that the local forums was terrible. And any way if you don't think there will ever be anything bad on a board with over 40k posts than why do have moderators? If moderators decide to delete a post they should always save it somewhere in case a Magistrates case needs to be filed IMO

When the call went out for moderators, very few answered that call. What makes you think that has changed? We never had a moderator for every single board; you can see my name on two of the boards from before I was made global moderator. If you want to be a moderator, by all means, send Tom an email (@lemuria.org).

When I applied with Indirik, I believe the head moderator he stated they weren't looking for moderators. There are people willing to read every post of the local forums and moderate them though.

[Stabbity]

Getting rid of the locals means killing the chatter that has made the game more interesting. It gives us a chance to see different viewpoints and interact with individuals who we would not normally interact with. I feel it really adds to the game in a way nothing else can. Yea, it makes infosec a bit harder, but I should think people aught to strive harder to keep secrets secret anyway. I have uncovered several in the past year and none of it was due to the forums. I was already well aware of most of the events being posted about in advance and I'm sure I wasn't the only one. Hell, a plot of mine just came to fruition and I've been working at it for close to a year and the forum didnt harm it any.

I will also say the forum is good for new players. It lets them get a feel for situations they otherwise would be fairly clueless about otherwise. I've had several new players and approach me about situations they read on the forums and wanted to know more about. This encouraged IC interaction and caused them to get involved and stick around.

[Kwanstein]

The players who post on these forums are generally very active in-game as well. If you send a message to a character of Glaumring, Vellos, Valast, etc. you will probably receive a response. So cutting them off from the forums in order to force them use in-game messages isn't necessary, as they already use in-game messages.

As far as the lack of in-game messaging goes, I think it has more to do with people not being very active. I've been going around messaging Dukes about something, and you'd think that Dukes, being in important positions, would be some of the more active players. But apparently not, because the ones I messaged didn't reply back and when I looked at their character locations they never moved either. Also, when I was in Perdan there was some Duke who lost his position due to idleness every other week, but the ruler kept on reappointing him. It happened many times. So, if you're going to blame something for lack of messages, you should blame Dukes... or just inactivity I guess.

[m2rt]

Which would be more of a reasonable analogy, if there had actually been rules that were being broken that caused the Locals to be removed.

You said yourself, there weren't clear guidelines. That doesn't mean we should close the subforum, that means we should make clear guidelines!

Then, if people still can't comport themselves well, and moderation doesn't help, we can close down the subforum.

Best thing I have read all day! I totally agree! And I believe there are many more who agree. Even ITIL has it very well defined that you can not measure the performance of a service without signing SLA.

Make rules. And we will follow.

[Vellos]

I have a very hard time believing that these cases would have been any better without the local boards.

These were cases of people who were simply harassing their victims in every venue open to them. The fact that the local boards were one of those venues doesn't indicate that they cause problems; it just means that people who cause problems were willing to abuse them to do so that little bit more.

This is a good point.

Notably, forums make dirty laundry public. Whisper campaigns become known.

I would argue that we have Magistrate cases about the locals because the OOC community of BM is toxic in many cases and once we put even a little light on it we realized there was a lot of cleaning to do: I do not believe the locals caused it because, frankly, I recall a lot of hostility when I was new to the game. I don't think the game is really less friendly than it was several years ago. Retention issues aren't new; we've been having community issues for at least 3 or 4 years, but they were never pointed out because we didn't have a venue to make them explicit.

[Eduardo Almighty]

Make rules. And we will follow.

If you cannot control the IRC, you can control the Forum. With rules, and after closed it, I belive the player will take care o eachother, reporting abuses more than before. As was said, I like to play the game and I like to write and interact on the forum... but I do it after or while I play the game. We can survive without the forum, but it's better with it.

[Anaris]

If you cannot control the IRC, you can control the Forum.

I'm sorry, and this isn't meant as a slight against you, but you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

IRC is not controlled by Tom in any way. It is an external service, run by a third party, that the BattleMaster community is able to take advantage of.

The forum is completely controlled by Tom. He can personally IP-ban anyone who pisses him off, lock or delete boards at a whim, and otherwise do whatever he feels like with the forum any time he pleases.

Not being able to control IRC does not have anything at all to do with our ability to control the forum.

With rules, and after closed it, I belive the player will take care o eachother, reporting abuses more than before. As was said, I like to play the game and I like to write and interact on the forum... but I do it after or while I play the game. We can survive without the forum, but it's better with it.

This, I agree with.

[Miriam Ics]

Best thing I have read all day! I totally agree! And I believe there are many more who agree. Even ITIL has it very well defined that you can not measure the performance of a service without signing SLA.

Make rules. And we will follow.

^ This (and Anaris post)

[Geronus]

Which would be more of a reasonable analogy, if there had actually been rules that were being broken that caused the Locals to be removed.

You said yourself, there weren't clear guidelines. That doesn't mean we should close the subforum, that means we should make clear guidelines!

Then, if people still can't comport themselves well, and moderation doesn't help, we can close down the subforum.

Huzzah!

[Tom]

Maybe my own biases are just keeping me from seeing it, but I'm not seeing this game-destroying ForumMaster Tom and the other powers-that-be are talking about.

It's not "powers-to-be" (whatever that is supposed to mean). Those complaints came from regular players.