Author Topic: stopping ForumMaster from destroying BattleMaster  (Read 132042 times)

Tom

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I have a very hard time believing that these cases would have been any better without the local boards.

These were cases of people who were simply harassing their victims in every venue open to them. The fact that the local boards were one of those venues doesn't indicate that they cause problems; it just means that people who cause problems were willing to abuse them to do so that little bit more.

True. But even if we can't stop them (or not immediately), we can stop giving them forum (in the non-Internet sense).

But again, the insults and harassment going on was only a part of the reason. The main reason was the (justified) complaint that people had moved so many IC discussions into the forum that quite a few players got the impression that they wouldn't fully play the game without participating in the forum as well.

Tom

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When I applied with Indirik, I believe the head moderator he stated they weren't looking for moderators. There are people willing to read every post of the local forums and moderate them though.

Yes, but seriously, we want people to read 43,000 posts just to fish out a few insults? No, we need to teach participants in the forum to report posts more often.

Tom

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Getting rid of the locals means killing the chatter that has made the game more interesting. It gives us a chance to see different viewpoints and interact with individuals who we would not normally interact with.

Once upon a time, people sought out that experience in-game through tournaments, guilds or travel.

Tom

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Even ITIL has it very well defined that you can not measure the performance of a service without signing SLA.

I've done compliance stuff IRL. The absolute last thing I want is copy that into a !@#$ing GAME.

The day this game has a rule for everything is the day I'll walk away from it. Have all of you forgotten the Social Contract you signed? Play as you would with a bunch of friends. Do you make rules for your friends? No, of course not. You establish a very small number of ground rules for the most important things like "no smoking in my house" and leave everything else to sort itself out because amongst friends you don't need to write a law book. The law is not written for friends, it is written for enemies. When you are in a competitive or hostile environment, that is when you need a hundred rules.

I personally think that the rule "don't be an !@#$%^&" is all we need and every ruling we've ever made can be derived from it. The more detailed rules we do have in the IRs and Social Contract just specify what "!@#$%^&" means in a bit more detail.

If the Locals needed explicit rules about what postings were ok and which ones not, then shutting them (they are not deleted, btw., just inaccessible) was the right thing to do, because they stopped being friendspace.

m2rt

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I've done compliance stuff IRL. The absolute last thing I want is copy that into a !@#$ing GAME.

The day this game has a rule for everything is the day I'll walk away from it. Have all of you forgotten the Social Contract you signed? Play as you would with a bunch of friends. Do you make rules for your friends? No, of course not. You establish a very small number of ground rules for the most important things like "no smoking in my house" and leave everything else to sort itself out because amongst friends you don't need to write a law book. The law is not written for friends, it is written for enemies. When you are in a competitive or hostile environment, that is when you need a hundred rules.

I personally think that the rule "don't be an !@#$%^&" is all we need and every ruling we've ever made can be derived from it. The more detailed rules we do have in the IRs and Social Contract just specify what "!@#$%^&" means in a bit more detail.

If the Locals needed explicit rules about what postings were ok and which ones not, then shutting them (they are not deleted, btw., just inaccessible) was the right thing to do, because they stopped being friendspace.

You said that main reason for locals to be shut down was that it was too much IC. Well, make a rule that forum is strictly OOC and DONE! I don't want to see tens of rules, who would bother reading them?

Basic guidelines are needed. If people are not limited, then they tend to touch the boundaries and thus shift the boundaries even further.

People see that other people discuss IC in IRC. Mostly just commenting on IC happenings and voicing their opinion. Not making IC decisions or anything else that would be needed to those who are not on IRC. Then people came to forums and continued, but at some point they went too far. Why? Because there were no guidelines! On IRC if people go too far, then there are other people to tell them that dude, thats not okay.

People are used to have some set of guidelines in forums, because based on what would you report a post if there are no guidelines set other than vulgarity and social contract?

Tom

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People are used to have some set of guidelines in forums, because based on what would you report a post if there are no guidelines set other than vulgarity and social contract?

Show me the book of rules you have about behaviour amongst your friends, at family dinner and when talking to your girlfriend or spouse.

There is no such thing, of course. Social interactions are dynamic, flexible and don't lend themselves to written rules, because - surprise - the genuine aspect of it is what makes it valuable and real. If your girlfriend were to follow a set of rules in your relationship, you wouldn't exactly feel like it were real, would you? It is precisely because there is no rule telling her to not step over that line AND she still knows not to that you feel she understands you.

Group dynamics are the same. It is the UNWRITTEN customs that define a culture.


There is really only one rule we need, everything else is just different aspects of it. You can call it "play with friends" or you can call it "play against each other IC, but with each other OOC" or "don't be an !@#$%^&" - that's all just variations of the theme, the theme being that this is a game and we're here to have fun and anyone who is detrimental to the fun of the others should leave.

And the only context you have to have in order to understand that right is that "fun" does NOT equal "winning". Of course it is a PvP game, of course people will win some and lose some, and defeating someone, even smashing him, is not taking away his fun.


And that's what's wrong with the community right now: We've lost that spirit. As players of BM, everyone has ONE responsibility, and that is to enlarge the game of others. If you fight with someone, you do it. If you argue IC with someone, you do. If you defeat someone, or get defeated, if you make alliances and break them, if you betray people - all those things give other people more play.

Arguing on the forum doesn't give anyone any play.

And I fear some people have forgotten that because to them the forum has become a game in itself.

Penchant

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I've done compliance stuff IRL. The absolute last thing I want is copy that into a !@#$ing GAME.

The day this game has a rule for everything is the day I'll walk away from it. Have all of you forgotten the Social Contract you signed? Play as you would with a bunch of friends. Do you make rules for your friends? No, of course not. You establish a very small number of ground rules for the most important things like "no smoking in my house" and leave everything else to sort itself out because amongst friends you don't need to write a law book. The law is not written for friends, it is written for enemies. When you are in a competitive or hostile environment, that is when you need a hundred rules.

I personally think that the rule "don't be an !@#$%^&" is all we need and every ruling we've ever made can be derived from it. The more detailed rules we do have in the IRs and Social Contract just specify what "!@#$%^&" means in a bit more detail.

If the Locals needed explicit rules about what postings were ok and which ones not, then shutting them (they are not deleted, btw., just inaccessible) was the right thing to do, because they stopped being friendspace.
So Tom, is it being an !@#$%^& to post an IG letter? I'd say you shouldn't do it unless you wrote it or its very public but I wouldn't call you an !@#$%^& for doing so. I also informed a newish player today that its poor form to completely copy and paste roleplays or to even use the knowledge without giving a reason for knowing it, but I don't think he is an !@#$%^&, I told him he has nothing to be sorry about because he just didn't know when he said he was sorry about it.

 I also would like to see an example of gameplay being done the forums. I seriously can not think of a single instance. Recently in the Dwilight thread I felt a poster was saying too much about army movements in the thread so I told him and I didn't hear info that I thought was a bad idea to be posting on the forums afterwards. He isn't an !@#$%^& for it though. I would say you are certainly missing out from not being on the local boards because its quite enjoyable and was the reason for several players that i have talked with in the past few days for unpausing there characters and rejoining the game because of what they read on the forums. The local boards in fact is the main reason I joined the forums and is likely the reason I am as involved and active as I am with BM because being a knight was fun while in war although it eventually went to peace and I probably would have quit the game entirely if I hadn't heard about Bedwyr knowing a lot about BM through the forums and introducing D'hara and Dwilight to me which was precisely what I was looking for.

To your reply to stabbity's comment, its certainly is done through tournaments, guilds, and traveling about as I do with my characters because while I might learn a little about stuff through the forums or chatting on IRC like many others, what I read on the forums makes me want to play more and travel about and join guilds. I nearly paused my character on AT but then I heard about some things on the forums and IRC and decided instead of giving up on my character I should put more effort into finding out about and joining in on the fun things I hear about on the forums.

Guidelines would be like: remember that you are talking to the player, not the character on here an issue not caused from the forums but players taking the game to seriously; don't post IG letters that aren't public, wrote by you, or unless you have permission from the author; avoid talking about army movements because we don't people having to make random mathematical choices which i heard someone had to do because they heard a little too much on irc and didn't want to feel like they were cheating; avoid talking about motives or secret events so they can be kept secret/found out in game. Those are all good guidelines that wouldn't make someone an !@#$%^& for not automatically knowing to follow them. They might be an !@#$%^& if they heard about them and completely disregarded them, but hearing about them at all and breaking them doesn't make me feel like the other guy is an !@#$%^&.

Btw, I have probably read 20-30k or more of local's board posts because I make it a habbit to read pretty much all of boards and if you have several mods who read their continents actively you don't need people like me that read all the boards in order  to moderate without the report to moderator function.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 11:38:22 AM by Penchant »
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m2rt

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Show me the book of rules you have about behaviour amongst your friends, at family dinner and when talking to your girlfriend or spouse.

There is no such thing, of course. Social interactions are dynamic, flexible and don't lend themselves to written rules, because - surprise - the genuine aspect of it is what makes it valuable and real. If your girlfriend were to follow a set of rules in your relationship, you wouldn't exactly feel like it were real, would you? It is precisely because there is no rule telling her to not step over that line AND she still knows not to that you feel she understands you.

Group dynamics are the same. It is the UNWRITTEN customs that define a culture.


There is really only one rule we need, everything else is just different aspects of it. You can call it "play with friends" or you can call it "play against each other IC, but with each other OOC" or "don't be an !@#$%^&" - that's all just variations of the theme, the theme being that this is a game and we're here to have fun and anyone who is detrimental to the fun of the others should leave.

And the only context you have to have in order to understand that right is that "fun" does NOT equal "winning". Of course it is a PvP game, of course people will win some and lose some, and defeating someone, even smashing him, is not taking away his fun.


And that's what's wrong with the community right now: We've lost that spirit. As players of BM, everyone has ONE responsibility, and that is to enlarge the game of others. If you fight with someone, you do it. If you argue IC with someone, you do. If you defeat someone, or get defeated, if you make alliances and break them, if you betray people - all those things give other people more play.

Arguing on the forum doesn't give anyone any play.

And I fear some people have forgotten that because to them the forum has become a game in itself.

You are overreacting. My point is the same Penchant made. New people do not know what is fine and what is not and old people forget it in time. That is why there are guidelines.

And you cant compare "real life" and "internet life". Because the IT culture is not as developed as we want it to be. Still people separate "real life" and "internet life", they dont get it that its the same. People are more bold online and tell stupid stuff. While in "real life" they do not, fearing other peoples looks or what not. Soon this will change when society develops, but not yet.

Your second point about fun, I totally agree! People want to win too much... That is why I secceeded from Minas Ithil, to generate fun, I was sure I am going to fail. But I didnt! The whole process was fun for many, sad too, but still fun.

But NO, the forum is not a game by itself. It just isnt. Its sometimes a good read and helps you as a player to see what other players think. So you would know how to generate FUN for THEM! But if you take this away, then how can I know what is fun for other players? I dont like OOC chatter IG.

Geronus

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Once upon a time, people sought out that experience in-game through tournaments, guilds or travel.

They still do, or don't, according to their temperament. I never bothered a lot before the forum, and I still won't now that the Local board is gone. Other people will, and have been all along.

I don't think you're going to see much benefit from closing the Local board in the game itself. The game needs more players to generate more interaction. That's not a problem you can magically solve by chopping up the forum. As you yourself have pointed out, only a small portion of the player base posts on the forums on a regular basis, so your anticipated benefit will have to come entirely from their characters. Considering that players like Indirik and Anaris are already quite active in the game, I don't see where you're going to get your hoped-for increase in IG message traffic from.

Chaotrance13

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In my opinion (and this is as an irregular poster if you go by Tom's standard) there are a few things that spring to mind regarding a toxic atmosphere. As a preface, I'm going to say that thanks to the forums there have been two effects on a personal level. The first is that I've stopped actively recommending the game to others like I did during my first six months or so. The second is I won't put characters in realms with some players because I have little-to-no faith that they will act with any integrity - if they don't here, why should they in game?

One of the first issues is the game's volunteers are just as culpable as the ordinary patrons/players. Many times I have seen members of the Dev Team, Magistrates or Moderators be rude, belittling or downright hostile to other players as if they will get away with murder. Everyone is bound by the Social Contract but yet this goes on and I have zero faith that if I were to use the report function as asked on any member of one of these groups that something would come of it or corrective action be taken. And so it will continue and nothing will change. I've said it before - you do not have the right to treat someone like dirt just because you volunteer for the game or otherwise have power.

That leads me onto Moderation Policy. So far we only know two things about this new stance. The first is that there is currently an attempt at a crackdown in force. The second is that there is a blacklist of three players (currently) who are on watch for any offences. But we know nothing else about it. Many members of the community offered suggestions or ideas but there's been no indication of whether they've been taken on board or not. I offered a couple regarding linking game accounts to forum accounts and they were roundly ignored by everyone and not just the moderation team (no surprise there really, most things I say are either ignored or taken the piss out of, wouldn't be surprised if it happened on IRC either). So this point is two-fold. The first is to ask what exactly is going on? Are new guidelines/rules for conduct on the forum coming into play in conjunction with this crackdown? The second is about this blacklist - what exactly do you have to do to earn such a status? Am I on the blacklist? What for?

The third is linked to Magistrates cases which has been mentioned before but it bears reminding. As it stands, anyone can offer their input into a Magistrates case. This has to stop because it means that groups of players (like with the case I attempted to bring recently linked to the toxic atmosphere cases) can just rise up and barrack or stonewall one side or the other, especially when it's then not moderated out as it should be (this goes back to the role/behaviour of the volunteers somewhat). Posts in those forums should, in my eyes, be for four parties only: Defendant, Plaintiff, Magistrates, Witnesses. You don't allow the gallery to shout out in most RL courts, why should we here?

Yes, there's not much we can do regarding making the forums private or much else without messing with usergroups or the forum software. But anything that isn't from one of these four parties should be deleted without warning. Defendants, Plaintiffs or Witnesses should only respond to specific questions from the Magistrates and nothing else. Discussions/deliberations are already in private and should stay that way rather than it spilling out into public. This would go some way to getting rid of this atmosphere but I am aware it may engender the same issues as we had under the Titan system.

egamma

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That leads me onto Moderation Policy. So far we only know two things about this new stance. The first is that there is currently an attempt at a crackdown in force. The second is that there is a blacklist of three players (currently) who are on watch for any offences. But we know nothing else about it. Many members of the community offered suggestions or ideas but there's been no indication of whether they've been taken on board or not. I offered a couple regarding linking game accounts to forum accounts and they were roundly ignored by everyone and not just the moderation team (no surprise there really, most things I say are either ignored or taken the piss out of, wouldn't be surprised if it happened on IRC either). So this point is two-fold. The first is to ask what exactly is going on? Are new guidelines/rules for conduct on the forum coming into play in conjunction with this crackdown? The second is about this blacklist - what exactly do you have to do to earn such a status? Am I on the blacklist? What for?

The moderation policy is still being discussed and clarified. When it's finalized, I think it will be made sticky at the top of each board.

As far as linking, I think there's a couple of problems with that idea. First, what about the hundreds of accounts that exist currently, but aren't linked? Second, what's stopping someone from making up a player ID for the link? Someone could link to the account of someone else by simply making up a number. And moderators don't have the authority to make that change, only Tom does. So if I'm not listening, it's because I can't do what you want done.

Anyone that I give a warning to--and I think the other moderators as well--gets an email sent to them explaining the reason why, with a link to the post. People who have 10 points, I think, have a "watched" icon under their name when they post; people who have 50+ points are muted, and can't post until their number of points drops below 50. I think one point a day or one point a week gets deducted by the forum software automatically, so people aren't muted forever.

Indirik

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Everyone is bound by the Social Contract but yet this goes on and I have zero faith that if I were to use the report function as asked on any member of one of these groups that something would come of it or corrective action be taken. And so it will continue and nothing will change. I've said it before - you do not have the right to treat someone like dirt just because you volunteer for the game or otherwise have power.
You are absolutely correct that the Social Contract applies to everyone, both ways. They volunteers/devs are both bound to obey it and protected by it, just as is every other player.

If you see *any* post that you think violates the Social Contract, report it. I'll slap a warning on Anaris or egamma just as fast as either of them should do it to me. None of us are immune. But if you're not reporting, then you're not helping.

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The second is that there is a blacklist of three players (currently) who are on watch for any offences. But we know nothing else about it.
The number and identity of anyone on a "watch list" changes from day to day. People who are given warnings are assigned points along with the warning. If the points get too high, then that user is muted for some time, and cannot post. Points decrease automatically over time. The combination of these means that people go on and off "the list" all the time. I'm not sure if the list is publicly visible, but it's really not important.

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I offered a couple regarding linking game accounts to forum accounts and they were roundly ignored by everyone and not just the moderation team
Personally, I think that's a great idea. Unfortunately, I don't know how much of an effort that would take to code. It is also code that would require checking and possibly fixing every time there was a forum software update, or possibly changes to the game code.


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So this point is two-fold. The first is to ask what exactly is going on? Are new guidelines/rules for conduct on the forum coming into play in conjunction with this crackdown?
New forum rules/guidelines are being discussed right now. They will be posted when ready.

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The second is about this blacklist - what exactly do you have to do to earn such a status? Am I on the blacklist? What for?
See above explanation.
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Anaris

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« Reply #207: August 12, 2013, 06:50:28 PM »
That's exactly it.

If people are getting that impression from the forum, they're getting it from something that none of us can see, and thus nothing we do can be expected to change it. Not better moderation, not closing the Local boards—nothing short of closing down the forum entirely. Which, obviously, I think would be a foolish overreaction.
Timothy Collett

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Tom

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Re: forummaster3
« Reply #208: August 12, 2013, 07:04:27 PM »
If people are getting that impression from the forum, they're getting it from something that none of us can see, and thus nothing we do can be expected to change it. Not better moderation, not closing the Local boards—nothing short of closing down the forum entirely. Which, obviously, I think would be a foolish overreaction.

Oh come on. You see it, too. I can't recall anyone defending the forum on the grounds of it being really friendly and welcoming, for example. The best anyone posted was that it's less aweful than some other forums for some other games.

Tom

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So Tom, is it being an !@#$%^& to post an IG letter?

It depends on the context, which is why a hard rule doesn't capture it.

If it takes game away from someone (e.g. because it reveals an in-game conspiracy, or spreads information that people wouldn't get otherwise) then it is being an !@#$%^&.

If its only purpose is to paint someone in a bad light, be it character or player, then it is being an !@#$%^&.

If you have a valid meta (ooc) question about it, and the letter is required as context to understand the question, and none of the above holds true, then it isn't.

And so on.


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I also would like to see an example of gameplay being done the forums. I seriously can not think of a single instance.

It is not about gameplay on the forum. Seriously, I've explained this a few times. It is about taking away gameplay from the game. The most simple and obvious case is that there is a lot of socialising being done on the forum - that could happen in-game. At tournaments, on the ruler channel, through guilds, etc.

The other most obvious part is that only the part of the playerbase who frequent the forum get to be a part of it. That's like hanging out with a bunch of guys who all go to the same school and you don't - you will be the outsider in that group.



I don't doubt the forums also have good sides.

But quite frankly, they are a MAJOR distraction. If nothing else, my own time spent on the forum vs. doing anything else for the game compared to my time spent on the discussion list vs. doing anything else for the game - wow.