Author Topic: stopping ForumMaster from destroying BattleMaster  (Read 132102 times)

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: forummaster3
« Reply #210: August 12, 2013, 07:20:03 PM »
Oh come on. You see it, too. I can't recall anyone defending the forum on the grounds of it being really friendly and welcoming, for example. The best anyone posted was that it's less aweful than some other forums for some other games.

You really have been selectively reading our posts, haven't you? The forums are incredibly friendly to new players. The only conflicts I ever see between players is the occasional over-passionate spat between older players from rival realms. I've especially seen this friendliness when new players have asked about what realms are interesting to join.

Geronus

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Re: forummaster3
« Reply #211: August 12, 2013, 07:23:07 PM »
Oh come on. You see it, too. I can't recall anyone defending the forum on the grounds of it being really friendly and welcoming, for example. The best anyone posted was that it's less aweful than some other forums for some other games.

I enjoy them. As with any group of people that's sufficiently large, there is going to be disagreement. That is inevitable. But I do not accept the argument that the forum is so bad that it merits being shut down.

I know you have other reasons (which I also disagree with), but I simply do not see the forum in general or the Local board specifically as an overly hostile place. The Local board features a bunch of passionate people discussing their favorite realms and islands. People are naturally going to have opposing viewpoints and disagree on many things, often stridently, but I think that the number of times that disagreements turn truly hostile in a personal sense is very limited in comparison to the total volume of posting going on, and is something that can be addressed easily enough by stricter moderation.

Anaris

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It is not about gameplay on the forum. Seriously, I've explained this a few times. It is about taking away gameplay from the game. The most simple and obvious case is that there is a lot of socialising being done on the forum - that could happen in-game. At tournaments, on the ruler channel, through guilds, etc.

But a lot of it is being done in an explicitly OOC manner—players talking about their characters, not players talking as their characters.

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The other most obvious part is that only the part of the playerbase who frequent the forum get to be a part of it. That's like hanging out with a bunch of guys who all go to the same school and you don't - you will be the outsider in that group.

I'm sorry, Tom, but this is a terrible argument.

First of all, everyone who uses the forum or does not use the forum chooses that for themselves.
Second of all, that's true of every kind of interaction that's not the bare minimum required to play the game—both in the game and outside it.
Third of all, it was just as true of the discussion list, and is just as true of IRC.
Fourth of all, and perhaps most important, this is not a "punishment" to the people who do not participate in the forum. This is a benefit to those who do: an additional sense of community, camaraderie, and friendship with the other players in the game. We would be quite happy if more people from the game would join in, and become part of the broader BattleMaster community, too.

Removing the forums would, at this point, be one of the worst things you could do for the game.

Frankly, Tom, you seem to think that the game can exist in some perfect vacuum, where nothing outside it can affect what goes on inside. But your game is played by people—by human beings, flawed and imperfect creatures that we all are—so that's not possible. Your attitude reminds me very much of those who think that advocating abstinence is the best way to prevent teen pregnancy: you have a picture in your head of how Things Are Supposed To Be, and you approach this problem by trying to force them to be that way. But they aren't, and they can't be, and trying to punish the people using the forums for being human—for wanting to engage their fellow players in a community, and be social—is the worst kind of counterproductive.

BattleMaster needs its community. It cannot survive long without it, and the more people participate in the community, the more are likely to invite their friends and want to play the game longer. Every move you make to shrink the community is more likely than anything to harm the game in the long term.

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I don't doubt the forums also have good sides.

But quite frankly, they are a MAJOR distraction. If nothing else, my own time spent on the forum vs. doing anything else for the game compared to my time spent on the discussion list vs. doing anything else for the game - wow.

Then ignore them all but the dev board, and let us handle them. Indirik and I are both forum admins; say the word, and we will take over the running of the forum, and you won't have to spend any time on the forum that's not directly related to development—ie, doing stuff for the game.
Timothy Collett

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Anaris

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Re: forummaster3
« Reply #213: August 12, 2013, 07:38:46 PM »
Oh come on. You see it, too.

Please speak for yourself. Your massive anti-forum bias is not shared by many people on the forum. For reasons that should be obvious.

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I can't recall anyone defending the forum on the grounds of it being really friendly and welcoming, for example. The best anyone posted was that it's less aweful than some other forums for some other games.

All right, then, now you won't be able to say that anymore:

I think the forum is a good, welcoming place for new players. I haven't yet seen a new player introduce themselves and be ridiculed or met with a hostile reaction. I've seen the Newbie Board be a great help to new players and players who aren't so new, but still have newbie questions.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

egamma

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Re: forummaster3
« Reply #214: August 12, 2013, 07:40:36 PM »
I also think that the Helpline and Newbie boards are great.

vonGenf

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Re: forummaster3
« Reply #215: August 12, 2013, 07:43:50 PM »
I've seen the Newbie Board be a great help to new players and players who aren't so new, but still have newbie questions.

The Newbie Board is really helpful - and I am glad it is still open.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Tom

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The second is about this blacklist - what exactly do you have to do to earn such a status? Am I on the blacklist? What for?

You are not or you would know about it. When the moderators add warning points to an account, you get a notice.


Linking forum accounts to game accounts is too difficult, or I would've done it long ago. The forum runs on a 3rd party software.


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The third is linked to Magistrates cases which has been mentioned before but it bears reminding. As it stands, anyone can offer their input into a Magistrates case. This has to stop because it means that groups of players (like with the case I attempted to bring recently linked to the toxic atmosphere cases) can just rise up and barrack or stonewall one side or the other, especially when it's then not moderated out as it should be (this goes back to the role/behaviour of the volunteers somewhat). Posts in those forums should, in my eyes, be for four parties only: Defendant, Plaintiff, Magistrates, Witnesses. You don't allow the gallery to shout out in most RL courts, why should we here?

Because we are not a court and other players can and do add valuable information. I do agree that any and all postings that contain insults, complaints, comments not relevant to the case or anything that doesn't belong need to be moderated into oblivion with extreme prejudice, even if they contain other valuable information. Some mods disagree, they would rather edit out the bad parts and leave the rest. It's their job so I let them do it as they see fit, personally I think they will come to realize that pressing the delete button is less work.

Tom

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Removing the forums would, at this point, be one of the worst things you could do for the game.

I already said multiple times that closing the forums down entirely IS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN on my mind.

But closing down the locals boards does make clear what the purpose of the forums is: To allow the players to talk about the game as players, not as characters. This is the meta-level, and it should stay that way.

Anaris

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But closing down the locals boards does make clear what the purpose of the forums is: To allow the players to talk about the game as players, not as characters. This is the meta-level, and it should stay that way.

But closing down the locals board also prevents people from talking about actually playing the game. Which, IMO, is a bad change.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Tom

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Re: forummaster3
« Reply #219: August 12, 2013, 08:08:14 PM »
Please speak for yourself. Your massive anti-forum bias is not shared by many people on the forum. For reasons that should be obvious.

Yes - people who dislike forums are unlikely to participate in them. :-)

Good, I'll speak for myself: The forum has fantastic parts like the helpline and quite often the general discussion. It has some really !@#$ty parts where people shout at each other and create a highly toxic atmosphere and no matter what you say in defense of the forum now, that topic has come up several times and these cases exist and are real, stop being as one-sided on the other side as you accuse me for the other.

And then there is the effect of the forum on the game. The forum DOES create an "in group" of people who are more in-the-loop, better informed, more connected than others. Please don't deny that the sky is blue.

Anaris

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Re: forummaster3
« Reply #220: August 12, 2013, 08:24:44 PM »
Yes - people who dislike forums are unlikely to participate in them. :-)

Which is fine, and I wouldn't try to force anyone who doesn't like forums to participate in them.

And that includes you. If you really dislike dealing with the forum so much, then I was completely serious earlier: either use just the dev team part, or even set the dev mailing list back up, and ignore the rest of the forum. Let Indirik, I, and the rest of those in whom you have put your trust manage the forum for you, and you can get on with what you actually enjoy doing.

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Good, I'll speak for myself: The forum has fantastic parts like the helpline and quite often the general discussion. It has some really !@#$ty parts where people shout at each other and create a highly toxic atmosphere and no matter what you say in defense of the forum now, that topic has come up several times and these cases exist and are real, stop being as one-sided on the other side as you accuse me for the other.

I'm not being one-sided. I agree that there's been some really awful stuff on the forums. I've never tried to deny it. But I've also said, and a lot of others have voiced similar opinions, that the solution to that awful stuff is better moderation—an improved mod policy, more crackdowns on trolling and flames, and at least some general guidelines for the players on what's expected of them regarding the forum. Until we've tried that and it's failed, closing down the locals is an unnecessary overreaction.

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And then there is the effect of the forum on the game. The forum DOES create an "in group" of people who are more in-the-loop, better informed, more connected than others. Please don't deny that the sky is blue.

I never did.

There is an effect like that. However, for various reasons that we have discussed several times before (mostly in relation to IRC, but also in the ForumMaster thread quite recently), I believe that that effect should not be an overriding concern. Like I said in that other thread, BattleMaster does not and can not exist in a vacuum, and trying to pretend that it can is not a useful way to proceed.

The benefits the entire game gains from the connections people forge on the forum and IRC outweigh the detriment the small increase in cliqueyness creates. And while I cannot deny a certain amount of bias in this quarter, I do not believe the increase in cliquish behaviour is anywhere near as strong as you seem to think it is.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Wolfang

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Tom, this topic is useless, it should be in announcements, as you've already made your mind up before you even made the topic. You basically ignore 90% of people's post-content and answer by nit picking certain phrases you disagree upon, whilst people are posting huge posts with arguments and solutions. I can understand everyone's frustration at trying to convey their point over to you.

I've pretty much resorted to reading about BM on another forum as I have no idea what is happening on Dwilight & in my paused-character's realm atm, and I wish I didn't have to. I'm willing to bet most of the people here are returning to irc to hear what is going on in other continents or far away realms, which doesn't surprise me. Both of these mediums are way more prone to involve IC discussions than the locals ever had (they didn't).

It's a sad state of affairs.


Chenier

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But closing down the locals board also prevents people from talking about actually playing the game. Which, IMO, is a bad change.

I gotta say that since this change, I don't really look forward to reading up the forum, because I know there won't really be anything of interest to read.
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Qyasogk

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Tom, this topic is useless, it should be in announcements, as you've already made your mind up before you even made the topic. You basically ignore 90% of people's post-content and answer by nit picking certain phrases you disagree upon, whilst people are posting huge posts with arguments and solutions. I can understand everyone's frustration at trying to convey their point over to you.

100% agreed as someone that Tom 100% ignored.

Tom, stop pretending you want to have conversations about these things (closing islands, closing forums, etc), and just rule by fiat and edict so we all know where our place is.  :(

Chenier

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Re: forummaster3
« Reply #224: August 13, 2013, 12:39:45 AM »
Guys, I think you are missing the point:

Truth doesn't matter, impression does. If a player new to or just interested in the game sees a lot of political discussions on the official forum, he will assume that he will need to follow the forum in order to stay up-to-date on in-game events. And with that one impression his mental model will double the estimated time requirement for the game.

It doesn't matter if his impression is wrong. You will never get the chance to discuss it with him and correct it.

On the other hand...

New characters are often not privy to a lot of info. And they lack the contacts and experience to "do something about it" or "force the ruler to do better" or "get someone more competent in place". Many players leave because, after joining, nothing seems to happen and they simply see no point to come back. The forums allow them to read up and learn on stuff, even exchange with other players, while they wait for stuff to actually happen IG. It can also help them choose the realms they will play in, an incredibly serious affair that the game offers really too little help with.

And then there is the effect of the forum on the game. The forum DOES create an "in group" of people who are more in-the-loop, better informed, more connected than others. Please don't deny that the sky is blue.

Yes, it does... but let's consider this: which do we prefer? A source for greater access to info that is available to all, regardless of activity, that they can read up on their own time whenever they want, and that can be monitored and moderated, or a place that holds no logs, that has no moderation, and that basically forces you to be on at all times and to read through a bunch of crap before being able to find the interesting stuff. In both cases, really active players will be able to fetch all the information they need, and seed all of the misinformation they desire. In one case, though, less active players will not have the time to get as much "scoop" as the more active player, and will not have anyone to protect him from hostile behavior. Which would you prefer?

In case you haven't guessed, I'm comparing the forums to IRC, here. It used to be that IRC was the place to be in the scoop. It was a much more elitist medium than the forum could ever be. Here, at least, all of the posts are organized into boards and subjects, and the most blatant crap is filtered out. This "in-group" you mention is a LOT broader with the forums than it was with IRC.
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