Author Topic: stopping ForumMaster from destroying BattleMaster  (Read 73479 times)

Tom

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100% agreed as someone that Tom 100% ignored.

Tom, stop pretending you want to have conversations about these things (closing islands, closing forums, etc), and just rule by fiat and edict so we all know where our place is.  :(

If you've been here for a while you know that at times I put down the hammer and that's it.

I keep this discussion open for a reason, and that I don't reply to a specific point doesn't mean I didn't hear it. However, do keep in mind the confirmation bias: Everyone here is already in the group of people who like the forum. And most of the arguments are one-sided from the side that enjoyed things the way they are, and in large parts shaped them.

There is also a silent minority/majority/we'll-never-know-what. They don't speak up here. They speak through private mail or by leaving the game. Just like I seem to ignore some arguments posted here, I feel the very real concerns of these people likewise get quite ignored.

Anaris

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Re: forummaster3
« Reply #226: August 13, 2013, 01:27:06 AM »
In case you haven't guessed, I'm comparing the forums to IRC, here. It used to be that IRC was the place to be in the scoop. It was a much more elitist medium than the forum could ever be. Here, at least, all of the posts are organized into boards and subjects, and the most blatant crap is filtered out. This "in-group" you mention is a LOT broader with the forums than it was with IRC.

And, as has already been made clear, no matter what the game's admins might prefer, it's not possible to shut down IRC.
Timothy Collett

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Anaris

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There is also a silent minority/majority/we'll-never-know-what. They don't speak up here. They speak through private mail or by leaving the game. Just like I seem to ignore some arguments posted here, I feel the very real concerns of these people likewise get quite ignored.

Well, you seem quite willing to take as fact statements about things that have happened on the forum that no one seems to be able to provide any evidence of.

And your accusations of our confirmation bias pale in comparison to you simply assuming the existence of some silent majority/minority/we'll-never-know-what who see the forum and leave the game because of it.

I'm sorry, Tom, but I'm calling BS. Yes, it's possible that there are people like that. And if there are, then I'm sad to have them go.

But you know what? There are real people right here. People we all know exist. People you are pissing off and alienating with every post. People who have stayed in your game. People who are talking to you, and whom you're treating as if we matter less than your hypotheticals. People who like your game, and want to play it and enjoy it, but whose enjoyment you are willfully eroding just because you never wanted this forum in the first place, and now you're taking the excuse of a couple of bad apples and a few heated arguments to rip out one of the most important parts of what makes the forum good for the game.

You have made a mistake here, Tom, a big one. And now you're hiding behind imaginary people to justify it.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Vellos

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do keep in mind the confirmation bias

Right back atcha!
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Meneldur

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Re: forummaster3
« Reply #229: August 13, 2013, 02:38:43 AM »

Yes, it does... but let's consider this: which do we prefer? A source for greater access to info that is available to all, regardless of activity, that they can read up on their own time whenever they want, and that can be monitored and moderated, or a place that holds no logs, that has no moderation, and that basically forces you to be on at all times and to read through a bunch of crap before being able to find the interesting stuff. In both cases, really active players will be able to fetch all the information they need, and seed all of the misinformation they desire. In one case, though, less active players will not have the time to get as much "scoop" as the more active player, and will not have anyone to protect him from hostile behavior. Which would you prefer?

In case you haven't guessed, I'm comparing the forums to IRC, here. It used to be that IRC was the place to be in the scoop. It was a much more elitist medium than the forum could ever be. Here, at least, all of the posts are organized into boards and subjects, and the most blatant crap is filtered out. This "in-group" you mention is a LOT broader with the forums than it was with IRC.

I think Chenier has pinpointed here exactly why the local areas of the forum are good, and why for me at least they have improved my BM experience.

I never had the time or the will to venture too much into the IRC- like any instant messaging system is requires a lot more attention to actually gain any fun out of and it can be very intimidating for newcomers. So before the introduction of the forum I had no OOC interaction with other BM players aside from the occasional OOC message in game, and certainly I didn't feel like I was part of any kind of "BM community".

However with the advent of the forums, and the local forums in particular, a more casual player like myself was finally able to get some OOC interaction; to discuss things with other players from other realms and to essentially become part of the Battlemaster community. It certainly made me more motivated to do stuff IC, and lessened the feeling of being a lone player in a wilderness that is unfortunately common in BM with the lessening player density.

Now of course you could say (as I think Tom is trying to) that all this is very bad: we shouldn't have to be using an OOC mechanism like the forums to feel truly part of the community and discussing stuff anything IC related OOC is detrimental to the game. And in a sense this is true. However the problem is that you cannot get around that. Before the forums there was no golden age where IC remained IC and OOC was only used for fun chats unrelated to Battlemaster; rather there was an even smaller group of elite players spending inordinate hours of time talking to eachother about IC issues with absolutely no kind of oversight or accountability, while the vast majority of players, even those such as myself who had the desire to interact with other BM players on an OOC level, were simply unable to join in or at the very least observe what was going on. Goodness knows what impact this had on the game itself: here on the forums I've seen the phrase "we discussed/thought this up on the IRC" thrown about several times, so the argument it somehow had no IG impact simply is not true. At the very least here on the forums it can be moderated and everyone can see what is going on, giving far more people a chance to participate.

I also think its no coincidence that many of those most hostile to the forums, including (if I am not mistaken) the guy who made the initial comment of "forummaster destroying battlemaster" are older players who probably already knew other players OOC before the forums existed. For such players I can imagine why the forums might be seen as irritating, as  yet another unnecessary OOC channel. But for those of us not privileged enough to have already developed OOC relationships with other players for years old family interaction or the IRC, the local forums were a fantastic way to finally feel part of a BM community and interact with players from different realms and continents. Not only that, but blatant propaganda aside the local forums were  a great way to select which realms to play in when creating a new character, rather than getting repeatedly disappointed by inaccurate realm descriptions or outdated wiki pages as has often been my experience (both before and after the forums).

Overall I think the complete loss of the local forums does not, as some here seem to think, send the message: "Do not discuss IC matters OOC, keep stuff like this in game". Instead it sends the message "Do not discuss IC matters OOC where it can be moderated and seen by all, keep these discussions between friends in private groups". If the former is truly the objective then a lot more drastic measures need to be considered, rather than simply removing the local forums and cutting off many from what was a fun part of BM.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 02:42:11 AM by Meneldur »

trying

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I think locals should just be news so just strip it down to the "post on facebook" stuff.

Geronus

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Re: forummaster3
« Reply #231: August 13, 2013, 04:12:28 AM »
Tom, I think that whether you're listening to us or not, you've already determined that this decision will not be reversed, which is frustrating to say the least. You've taken away something that was a source of enjoyment and a sense of community for me, and for reasons that I do not agree with. The Local board enriched my Battlemaster experience. Now it's gone. I do not expect to see anything come out of this decision that will make up for that loss. What are you hoping to get out of this decision? More investment in the game? If anything I think you'll see less; the people who don't like the forum and don't use it will keep doing exactly what they've been doing, so no change there. The people who did like it, well, for them the Local board inspired interest in what was going on in the game. Interest drives investment. Less interest means less investment.

I don't think you appreciate the sense of community that the forum created, and even if you did you would be inclined to undervalue it because the game has been declining since before the forum was created. Did it ever occur to you that the forum might possibly have prevented that decline from being even worse than it has been? I can tell you right now that if it weren't for the forum, I wouldn't be playing today, and may well have stopped playing much earlier than I actually did. How many other people might say the same? You don't know, you just assume there's some silent majority out there that agrees with you and that if only you do what they want you to do, the game will be improved for everyone. Well, I know at least one person for whom this will not be an improvement.

Stabbity

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If you've been here for a while you know that at times I put down the hammer and that's it.

I keep this discussion open for a reason, and that I don't reply to a specific point doesn't mean I didn't hear it. However, do keep in mind the confirmation bias: Everyone here is already in the group of people who like the forum. And most of the arguments are one-sided from the side that enjoyed things the way they are, and in large parts shaped them.

There is also a silent minority/majority/we'll-never-know-what. They don't speak up here. They speak through private mail or by leaving the game. Just like I seem to ignore some arguments posted here, I feel the very real concerns of these people likewise get quite ignored.

Have you ever considered that there must be something to some of your most dedicated players LIKING the local boards? If myself and the likes of Delvin like it, use and hang around it after playing for around a decade, then maybe its a good thing for battlemaster. Granted, we are a minority of players, but we are also the ones who have played the longest and thus have a better sense of what makes the game more or less enjoyable. Like the old estate system where we were stuck playing regional maintenance master compared to the current estate system. We feel (and are justified in feeling this way) that the locals have been a good thing, as compared to the eight or so years without it. I have seriously seen IRC and the locals cause players stick around who might not have otherwise. We've had a couple of players leave who had activity on the forums yes, but much of those incidents also took place in game as well. If we're going to try and stop player nastiness why not just disable messaging while you're at it?
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Tom

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I'm sorry, Tom, but I'm calling BS. Yes, it's possible that there are people like that.

There are, I have their e-mails.

Tom

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As I said: I hear you. I am stubborn but not stupid.

Let's turn this discussion constructive again: If you want the locals to return, work out a proposal that ensures their downsides are considered and avoided. Can we create a place to talk ABOUT a game world or a realm WITHOUT removing content from the game that belongs into in-game messages?


Tom

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forummaster2
« Reply #235: August 13, 2013, 09:48:57 AM »
Tom, I think that whether you're listening to us or not, you've already determined that this decision will not be reversed,

If I were, I would have deleted the boards instead of just locking them. I am very careful about doing stuff that can not be reversed.

Jaden

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Well i think maybe we should set some rules:

1) Only events that have happened should be discussed
2) threads should be event based (?)
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Anaris

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There are, I have their e-mails.

And how many are there?

A dozen? A hundred? Four?

If there are not more of those than there are people telling you that the locals are a good thing, then perhaps you should take away from it that yes, different people can find different types of things to be beneficial and detrimental—but more of the type of people who are strong, active players for BattleMaster enjoy the forum than are repelled by it.

As I said: I hear you. I am stubborn but not stupid.

Let's turn this discussion constructive again: If you want the locals to return, work out a proposal that ensures their downsides are considered and avoided. Can we create a place to talk ABOUT a game world or a realm WITHOUT removing content from the game that belongs into in-game messages?

1) Make more moderators. At least 2-3 different people have expressed an interest in moderating some or all of the local boards, and I'm sure we can come up with more, especially if it's made clear that no Local board will be reopened without at least one dedicated, active moderator.
2) Give people guidelines about what is acceptable, with #1 being "don't be an !@#$%^&" (or something similar). (No, that doesn't mean a set of ironclad rules that can be lawyered and gamed. It means guidelines.)
3) Include in those guidelines a prohibition on posting in-game messages that you did not send, or that do not obviously describe well-known events.
4) If you absolutely insist upon trying to prevent someone that no one has provided any evidence for the existence of whatsoever then include in those guidelines prohibitions on discussing in-game events that are planned, ongoing or less than a week old.

Honestly, for most people currently following the forums, the fact that you were willing to close down the Locals in the first place should be enough incentive to not start flame wars or other hostile interactions there, at least for a good while. Clear guidelines and active moderation should take care of the rest.
Timothy Collett

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Ender

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Quote
1) Make more moderators. At least 2-3 different people have expressed an interest in moderating some or all of the local boards, and I'm sure we can come up with more, especially if it's made clear that no Local board will be reopened without at least one dedicated, active moderator.

I think the general consensus in that thread about moderation (and throughout all of these other threads) more or less said the same thing. Just about everyone here is willing to see more effective moderation in place. If people are willing to moderate, let them, set a bunch of guidelines, and enforce them. If you cut down on the jerks being jerks, things would settle down into a more friendly state of affairs and would clean up the problem areas, I think.

And honestly, right now, these forums feel way more toxic to me than they ever did because of this whole ForumMaster debacle and, specifically, the way you, Tom, are treating everyone defending the forums while trying to sort out this issue.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 03:30:02 PM by Ender »

egamma

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Well, you seem quite willing to take as fact statements about things that have happened on the forum that no one seems to be able to provide any evidence of.

It's hard to provide evidence without having access to the boards. I believe I provided 3 examples. Here are three more:

1. Talking about Nazi symbols on a server hosted in Germany
2. Insulting the Zuma GM and anything to do with the Zuma
3. Bad-talking Aurvandil well after the multi-cheater was banned

And that's just the Dwilight local.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 10:13:26 PM by egamma »