Author Topic: stopping ForumMaster from destroying BattleMaster  (Read 132044 times)

Geronus

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I see the connection. I think Tom was more interested in the parts about how people are far nastier to each other online than they ever would be in a face to face conversation. And it is definitely true; ever checked out the comment sections of most major news websites, or sports websites? They're filled with hate. I don't even know why those organizations bother to have comment sections; anything worthwhile that might ever come out of them is buried in flames because they're barely moderated. On the other hand I have found smaller sites with wonderful communities that form in the comments, and I attribute that to dedicated moderators who don't tolerate any crap. One of the websites I like the most doesn't even post your comments before someone reviews them.

Atanamir

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I must say I am kind of shocked of how people are talking to Tom in this forum recently.

When I started this game, everyone was scared to !@#$ when he only read the name "Tom".
You were so afraid that a lightning bolt would hit you that you just closed your eyes when his name appeared on your screen no matter if IC or OOC.
Now I see a much more liberal Tom asking people about their opinions...and getting the bill for it.

I see a forum community, attacking Tom and not showing any respect to the creator of this game.
You all think you know better and you gang up in here against him to teach him better about his own game.
You even put him so much in the corner that he has to become like some here and that he gets insulting as well.
Hell, I just saw two days ago a message beind moderated on him, who is the owner of this game....where in the end he actually can do as he wants.
He could just delete Battlemaster if he wants, and everyone would have to accept it.
So, when he says "white", it is not "black". Even if  you disagree or know better.

Concluding, I think this direction is not good and I certainly can understand why he posted that article.
Maybe the democratic elements of this forum which Tom has allowed over the last years are not good in the end.
Maybe this should become more a tyranny again, as Tom has become too soft with people here.
Maybe people should just leave Battlemaster if they don't like it the way Tom wants it...

Anaris

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I see a forum community, attacking Tom and not showing any respect to the creator of this game.

Anyone who tells me that the only reason I hold a certain opinion is that I was a bullied geek in school and now I'm living out a fantasy of being a powerful in-group deserves no respect for that.

Anyone who is given evidence in plenty, and repeatedly discards it all with a brief dismissive comment about being "not representative" (particularly when the group giving the evidence is, ipso facto, the group making most use of the forum in question) deserves no respect for that, either.

When Tom's not acting like a religious zealot whose Bible has just been questioned, or treating me with condescension that wouldn't befit a spoiled child, I will give him respect. But like many people—Tom included—treat me like crap and I will respond in kind.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Zakilevo

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Haven't this thread served its purpose? I think it is starting to drift away from the focus.

Atanamir

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Anyone who tells me that the only reason I hold a certain opinion is that I was a bullied geek in school and now I'm living out a fantasy of being a powerful in-group deserves no respect for that.

Insulted feels only the one who feels talked to.
But his message was a general one, and you are only one person here, out of many.
Yes, you are also a developer.
Yes, you are also a guy that has 3608 posts in this forum.
But also, Timothy, you are, like everyone, only a number here - no offense intended.
You are User ID: 3604.
We are all just players and user ids here, at the end of the day, in front of the game owner.
Now as developer, you are developing this game for Tom.
If you don't like Tom's behaviour to you, quit the developer job.
Now as player, you play Tom Vogt's game and under his as you call it biblic rules. He can do that if he wants and none can force him to change that.
It's not the game of Timothy Collett and his opinions or studies or evidences.
So if you don't like to play Tom Vogt's Battlemaster, quit the game as well.

None is forcing you to stay here and accept the insults if you feel insulted so much.
You always have the choice.
If you want to remain here you have to accept things in the end. It's the way it is.
If you don't want to accept things, you have to take yourself out of the equation.

Staying around and doing the forum ping pong is showing no proper attitude as well - and makes the whole thing -> Forummaster.
I have stayed anyway again too long here, off for beers.
Enjoy your Saturday evening.

Kwanstein

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Insulted feels only the one who feels talked to.
But his message was a general one, and you are only one person here, out of many.
Yes, you are also a developer.
Yes, you are also a guy that has 3608 posts in this forum.
But also, Timothy, you are, like everyone, only a number here - no offense intended.
You are User ID: 3604.
We are all just players and user ids here, at the end of the day, in front of the game owner.
Now as developer, you are developing this game for Tom.
If you don't like Tom's behaviour to you, quit the developer job.
Now as player, you play Tom Vogt's game and under his as you call it biblic rules. He can do that if he wants and none can force him to change that.
It's not the game of Timothy Collett and his opinions or studies or evidences.
So if you don't like to play Tom Vogt's Battlemaster, quit the game as well.

None is forcing you to stay here and accept the insults if you feel insulted so much.
You always have the choice.
If you want to remain here you have to accept things in the end. It's the way it is.
If you don't want to accept things, you have to take yourself out of the equation.

Staying around and doing the forum ping pong is showing no proper attitude as well - and makes the whole thing -> Forummaster.
I have stayed anyway again too long here, off for beers.
Enjoy your Saturday evening.

I must say I am kind of shocked of how people are talking to Tom in this forum recently.

When I started this game, everyone was scared to !@#$ when he only read the name "Tom".
You were so afraid that a lightning bolt would hit you that you just closed your eyes when his name appeared on your screen no matter if IC or OOC.
Now I see a much more liberal Tom asking people about their opinions...and getting the bill for it.

I see a forum community, attacking Tom and not showing any respect to the creator of this game.
You all think you know better and you gang up in here against him to teach him better about his own game.
You even put him so much in the corner that he has to become like some here and that he gets insulting as well.
Hell, I just saw two days ago a message beind moderated on him, who is the owner of this game....where in the end he actually can do as he wants.
He could just delete Battlemaster if he wants, and everyone would have to accept it.
So, when he says "white", it is not "black". Even if  you disagree or know better.

Concluding, I think this direction is not good and I certainly can understand why he posted that article.
Maybe the democratic elements of this forum which Tom has allowed over the last years are not good in the end.
Maybe this should become more a tyranny again, as Tom has become too soft with people here.
Maybe people should just leave Battlemaster if they don't like it the way Tom wants it...

Tim has been communicating his thoughts to Tom. Their communication appears to have gone a bit sour, but such things can happen when two people beg to differ.

So what is the point of your post? You're telling people to desist arguing their opinions and to quit the game if they don't like the owner's decisions. What sense does that make. What point is there in avoiding compromise and not attempting persuasion. You've made no attempt at substantiating your opinions. There's no obvious logic to them. They don't appear to be arguments at all, but rather an attempts at instigating responses. Their manner of their delivery is blatant brow beating.

The so-called negativity on this forum and the internet can hang -- I care nothing for it -- but what I can't stand is illogical rhetoric. I think that most of humanities problems, including whichever ones are afflicting this game, could be solved if only people would reject nonsensical ideas. Well, we can begin by rejecting yours. "Don't argue, just quit." Screw that, I'll argue about whatever I want.

Tom

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Anyone who tells me that the only reason I hold a certain opinion is that I was a bullied geek in school and now I'm living out a fantasy of being a powerful in-group deserves no respect for that.

You could only find that in my text if you wanted to. What I actually wrote was that many of us geeks can understand how it feels to be an outsider to an in-group, because we've been there.

I fail to see how that is insulting to anyone.

SaDiablo

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Ya,  honestly I think its case closed.  The biggest point is Tom wants the game-play to stay as near 100% in the game.  Is that possible, no and I'm sure he knows that.  But as a prior history player that started a new account I can say that there is typically less communication in the game now than in the past.   As far as Role-play I would remove that tag and make a general statement that all messages are considered role-play unless marked for OOC.  Then add a narrative feature that makes it simple to understand that its a character role-play that generally does not involve others.  So character wise you have zero knowledge unless the narrator leaves clues for you to gain.  That would resolve the issue of the role-play forum imo.   This has been brought up before in different forms so I believe its worth a greater gain than leaving it to sit idly by.


egamma

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MODERATOR NOTE: I've deleted several insulting posts. I've deleted several off-topic posts. I've given people warnings. The next insulting post will get this thread locked.

Can't you people see, from your own posts, the reason why the locals were closed? Keep it up and you'll lose the forums too.

Gustav Kuriga

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Ya,  honestly I think its case closed.  The biggest point is Tom wants the game-play to stay as near 100% in the game.  Is that possible, no and I'm sure he knows that.  But as a prior history player that started a new account I can say that there is typically less communication in the game now than in the past.   As far as Role-play I would remove that tag and make a general statement that all messages are considered role-play unless marked for OOC.  Then add a narrative feature that makes it simple to understand that its a character role-play that generally does not involve others.  So character wise you have zero knowledge unless the narrator leaves clues for you to gain.  That would resolve the issue of the role-play forum imo.   This has been brought up before in different forms so I believe its worth a greater gain than leaving it to sit idly by.

This was already like that before the forums were even opened. closing them won't have the effect wanted.

Stabbity

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Ya,  honestly I think its case closed.  The biggest point is Tom wants the game-play to stay as near 100% in the game.  Is that possible, no and I'm sure he knows that.  But as a prior history player that started a new account I can say that there is typically less communication in the game now than in the past.   As far as Role-play I would remove that tag and make a general statement that all messages are considered role-play unless marked for OOC.  Then add a narrative feature that makes it simple to understand that its a character role-play that generally does not involve others.  So character wise you have zero knowledge unless the narrator leaves clues for you to gain.  That would resolve the issue of the role-play forum imo.   This has been brought up before in different forms so I believe its worth a greater gain than leaving it to sit idly by.

Completely missed the point about the roleplay forum. Its not to do with IG/OOG seperation there. The problem with closing it is that good RP now has no way to make its way to a bigger audience than a realm/guild/religion etc.
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Sacha

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Put it on the Wiki?

SaDiablo

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I would disagree, the game played just fine without forums in the past and would survive going forward.  Does the forums have benefits, yet but as egamma put, are they worth the trouble if it always breaks down to insults?  The simple answer is no even with moderation you eventually have people that will continue to press and press until even the moderators say screw it, i'm done.  The debate is whether its really good for gameplay and honestly imo  its not, it takes away from it.


Stabbity,  I did not miss the point of the roleplay forum, let me ask you a question as it just popped into my head,  what if roleplays went island wide.  That may not fix what you want but it is another option to consider

Gustav Kuriga

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I would disagree, the game played just fine without forums in the past and would survive going forward.  Does the forums have benefits, yet but as egamma put, are they worth the trouble if it always breaks down to insults?  The simple answer is no even with moderation you eventually have people that will continue to press and press until even the moderators say screw it, i'm done.  The debate is whether its really good for gameplay and honestly imo  its not, it takes away from it.


Stabbity,  I did not miss the point of the roleplay forum, let me ask you a question as it just popped into my head,  what if roleplays went island wide.  That may not fix what you want but it is another option to consider

Except they don't always break down into insults, and the game was not playing fine without the forums, in fact the game has been dying for a long, long time.

Stabbity

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I would disagree, the game played just fine without forums in the past and would survive going forward.  Does the forums have benefits, yet but as egamma put, are they worth the trouble if it always breaks down to insults?  The simple answer is no even with moderation you eventually have people that will continue to press and press until even the moderators say screw it, i'm done.  The debate is whether its really good for gameplay and honestly imo  its not, it takes away from it.


Stabbity,  I did not miss the point of the roleplay forum, let me ask you a question as it just popped into my head,  what if roleplays went island wide.  That may not fix what you want but it is another option to consider

That's a terrible solution. Some roleplays deserve mass distribution, and some don't. The wiki is good for preserving things, but who wants to have to dig through a thousand dull pages to find one good roleplay? The forum provides a good way to read new, interesting roleplays you might not otherwise ever come across.

Yes the game functioned fine for years without the forum. I'm aware. I was there. However, I feel the forum adds only positives. The amount of good content completely outweighs the very few incidents were it comes to insults. Anyone saying the forum is nothing but bile and insults and flame wars is wrong, and is exhibiting a terrible bias. Besides, moderation is only a part of the solution. We have the magistrates and titans for a reason. If someone continues to abuse the forum, open a magistrate case. The social contract still applies on the forums, and the only problem I see is a lack of enforcement. When you have a MAGISTRATE going around and openly accusing a realm of cheating for months, there is a problem. I was at the point where if I saw it one more time I was going to take it to the magistrates for repeated abuse, but then the locals were closed.

I challenge anyone here to go through some of the top local threads and compare the number of flames to the number of non flame posts. You're all exaggerating a problem and shutting your ears to any possible solutions that aren't "close it all down" because you're too set in your ways of "forums are bad".

The topic is stopping forummaster from destroying battlemaster, which is frankly, dumb. From what I've seen the forum hasn't detracted one bit from the game of battlmaster, and I have yet to see any evidence that this is the case.

Present evidence that the locals are harming Battlemaster, and I'll listen. Otherwise this entire thread has been just a waste of space.
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