Author Topic: stopping ForumMaster from destroying BattleMaster  (Read 132196 times)

Wolfang

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I suggest we do, as the opposing party doesn't seem to be willing to work on guidelines.

Anaris

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Here's my attempt to take into account the various concerns I have heard in this thread. Critique away.

My first critique: you put the guidelines in a quote, which makes them harder for people replying to you to quote to address them directly :P

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1. The Game Discussion board is for OOC discussion about the game. Here you are a player, not your character. Think and act accordingly.

This is good.

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2. Do not quote messages from within the game under any circumstances, even ones you sent.

First of all, I'd like to say that I've never fully agreed with the restrictions people want to put on posting messages that people have sent in-game. If you are willing to share the information in-game, why are you not willing to share it outside the game? Anyone who's posting it on the forum has obviously already received it, so they have the ability to share it with any group they like in-game anyway...

That said, I do understand the desire to prevent information that is still private to certain groups in-game from becoming public outside the game, and thus the restrictions on posting messages on the forum that your characters did not send.

I do not understand how preventing quoting even messages your own characters have sent helps anything. Please justify this more fully.

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3. No spoilers. Do not discuss events that are not public knowledge in at least one realm.

I like this, and in fact, I might almost say that this would be a better way to handle #2. However, I would change "realm" to either "realm or guild/religion" or "non-closed/non-exclusive group", since being public in a religion like Sanguis Astroism gets it before at least as many eyes as in many realms.

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4. Respect the Social Contract. Here, that means be polite to your fellow players at all times. It is acceptable to disagree with them. It is not acceptable to abuse them because you disagree with them.

This is probably the most important.

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5. Remember that every character and every realm has a player or players behind it. Please refrain from over-the-top criticism, excessive negativity, snarky comments, or trolling of any sort.

I don't object to this, but it seems like a restatement of #4. Perhaps it could be merged into it?

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6. If someone makes you angry because they have violated any of the first 5 rules, don't respond in kind. Stop, breathe, and then use the Report function. The Moderators will deal with the situation.

This is probably the second most important of these guidelines.

My main worry with guidelines like these—particularly #2 and #3—is that Tom will see them as "just another set of rules" that people can game and lawyer their way around.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Miriam Ics

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Out of curiosity, how do players who ignore the forums get the feeling that if they aren't participating on the forums, that they are being left out? I mean, if they ignore the forums, then how do they know they are being left out? How do they feel that participation on the forums is mandatory, if they never read it? Are people in-game constantly telling their realm-mates to come visit the forums so they can participate? Are they telling the people in their realms that their war strategy will be determined via forum-based discussion?

If they aren't reading it, then how can they develop an opinion that participating in it is so important?
^This.

And, I would like to know also how Forum make worse players as Stue said.

My feeling is that people have a wrong idea that those on IRC or in forum are band wagoning, wagon gaming or whatever is the word (I never remember).

All I know is that since those discussions about forum, magistrates and sinking islands started, I have seen so many players quitting. Old players quitting with no reason.

Is not "the forum" the problem. Is how much importance people give to it, and what is said on it, forgetting that each one of us is a person, that we would like probably very much if we meet in person, because it would be very funny to talk about the game, and about all stories, and because if we choose this game and we like it, we probably have a few things in common.

Seriously, 25 pages is too much. I left the forum because there's nothing interesting FOR ME. I like to read RP's, but most of them are out of context so I cant know what happen before or after and then I stop reading.
I like to read the experiments Artemesia does with his advies. I like to read developments of a war, but stop to read it when the whining start. I like to know when Lilwolf update his book link. I like to know a little more about everyone by reading their posts.
I get to know that Fleugs and Stabbity are sweet guys and that Zakky is not the monster I thought he was when he destroyed my first Realm. I like to know about the couples, the kids, the marriages, the university, the real life of the players around me, as I would be doing if we were around a table and I don't think this is wrong. This is what make me keep a good separation between players and characters. But this is me and NO ONE can or should judge me, or anyone else.

The problem here, IMO, is that people (including me, despite my efforts to not do this) are constantly judging others for what they say, or how they play.

At the end, what I think we should do to stop this is to avoid any and every critic unless it is about something, and not someone, and I invite you to read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_criticism).

I truly believe that if you take out forum and IRC, people will open a forum, use skype, msn, gtalk, google, whatever they can find to share OOC opinions about the game, so, removing the forum is not a option, IMO, moderating it, is. Making clear the rules, and I need to say, I never saw before a community that actually follow the rules and accept them like this one of Battlemaster, and I have been saying how much I like this community since the day I started the game.
"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."

Bael

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... I never saw before a community that actually follow the rules and accept them like this one of Battlemaster, and I have been saying how much I like this community since the day I started the game.

You know, I believe you are right. I reckon Battlemaster is very much the exception when it comes to online gaming - people accept the environment and generally get along with most people. There is no 1337-speak or other strange abominations.

When it comes to the forum, however, it is pretty much on par, if not below, other forums online. There isn't the same feeling of respect as there is in the game, or even in other forums.

I suspect I am just reiterating what many others have said, but there it is.

Gustav Kuriga

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You know, I believe you are right. I reckon Battlemaster is very much the exception when it comes to online gaming - people accept the environment and generally get along with most people. There is no 1337-speak or other strange abominations.

When it comes to the forum, however, it is pretty much on par, if not below, other forums online. There isn't the same feeling of respect as there is in the game, or even in other forums.

I suspect I am just reiterating what many others have said, but there it is.

I feel you are very much incorrect. There are hardly the large number of trolls or newb-bashers that patrol other forums I happen to be on. And besides that, as can be seen with the rash of Magistrate reports of harassment coming from within the game, I would hardly say that the game is more friendly.

Indirik

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So no one has any feedback on my attempt at creating some guidelines for forum users? Should we take it to Tom then?
The Moderators are working on a set of forum rules. They are, mostly, along the same lines as what is being presented here. If I can get enough of the mods/admins to agree to them, then they will be posted for public comment. (That means you, too, Anaris... *poke* ...)
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Geronus

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Well, perhaps my efforts are pointless in light of Indirik's quote, but I'm still going to respond to Anaris. Perhaps the back and forth will prove useful to the Moderators in determining their approach.

First of all, I'd like to say that I've never fully agreed with the restrictions people want to put on posting messages that people have sent in-game. If you are willing to share the information in-game, why are you not willing to share it outside the game? Anyone who's posting it on the forum has obviously already received it, so they have the ability to share it with any group they like in-game anyway...

That said, I do understand the desire to prevent information that is still private to certain groups in-game from becoming public outside the game, and thus the restrictions on posting messages on the forum that your characters did not send.

I do not understand how preventing quoting even messages your own characters have sent helps anything. Please justify this more fully.

Because this way it's much easier to enforce since it may not always be clear to a Moderator or others whether the person who posted the quote represents the family being quoted or not (as there's no direct link between game and forum accounts). Black and white rules are much easier to enforce than ones with exceptions and other shades of gray. Beyond that, many people have talked about how they feel that too much IG information being shared on the forum. Direct quotes of characters are probably the most intimate and potentially damaging type of information that can be shared. Someone may have written a letter to all rulers, but that doesn't mean that every ruler bothered to share that letter with their realm. The forum is not for propaganda purposes, which if you think about it is one of the only reasons to ever bother sharing a direct quote here. We're supposed to be talking about the game, not playing it. More to the point, do you have a positive argument to make about the benefit of allowing direct quotes? I cannot think of any off hand.

I like this, and in fact, I might almost say that this would be a better way to handle #2. However, I would change "realm" to either "realm or guild/religion" or "non-closed/non-exclusive group", since being public in a religion like Sanguis Astroism gets it before at least as many eyes as in many realms.

Sharing something in Sanguis Astroism (for instance) would make it public knowledge in multiple realms, so I think we're covered. I don't see a reason to be more precise in the wording. If anything, I should probably remove the reference to realms and leave it at "public knowledge." Then the Moderators can make a call if someone complains.

I don't object to this, but it seems like a restatement of #4. Perhaps it could be merged into it?

Perhaps. One says be polite. The other one says don't be an !@#$%^&. The difference is in the emphasis. But yes, they could be merged relatively easily. I won't bother to do it now, especially since the Mods will be writing their own, but yeah... The emphasis is why I kept them separate.

My main worry with guidelines like these—particularly #2 and #3—is that Tom will see them as "just another set of rules" that people can game and lawyer their way around.

Maybe, but Mod actions are not publicly announced, and if I were them I would not be in the business of considering appeals. People who get warned will get the hint quickly enough, and if they don't they'll end up muted. I don't see much lawyering being possible, or encouraged.

Anaris

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Sharing something in Sanguis Astroism (for instance) would make it public knowledge in multiple realms, so I think we're covered. I don't see a reason to be more precise in the wording. If anything, I should probably remove the reference to realms and leave it at "public knowledge." Then the Moderators can make a call if someone complains.

Thus speaks someone with an Astroist bias, methinks ;D

If something were shared in SA, people in multiple realms would know it, but it would not necessarily be public knowledge within those realms. For instance, many people in Luria would know it, but Alanna—their ruler—would not.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Geronus

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Thus speaks someone with an Astroist bias, methinks ;D

Guilty as charged  8)

Kai

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Its funny how people are trying to make rules but are all playing different games.

Penchant

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Its funny how people are trying to make rules but are all playing different games.
Feel free to elaborate.
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Penchant

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Thus speaks someone with an Astroist bias, methinks ;D

If something were shared in SA, people in multiple realms would know it, but it would not necessarily be public knowledge within those realms. For instance, many people in Luria would know it, but Alanna—their ruler—would not.
Well I can think of a realm that important information of the goings on of SA is shared within the realm.
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Revan

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Oh man, I think this has gone too far and too long now. I want Tom to come back and just start making executive decisions. Tell us what continent is going, what's happening with the forums, then we can all move on. We're just going round in circles here and it's a real shame to see some folk get frustrated with one another on this thread, of all threads.

Anaris

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Oh man, I think this has gone too far and too long now. I want Tom to come back and just start making executive decisions. Tell us what continent is going, what's happening with the forums, then we can all move on. We're just going round in circles here and it's a real shame to see some folk get frustrated with one another on this thread, of all threads.

Tom has stated that he's taking a temporary break from the forums, so he won't be chiming in for a while.

And frankly, I think we need to learn to get along OK without him delivering a Word of God proclamation.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Gustav Kuriga

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Oh man, I think this has gone too far and too long now. I want Tom to come back and just start making executive decisions. Tell us what continent is going, what's happening with the forums, then we can all move on. We're just going round in circles here and it's a real shame to see some folk get frustrated with one another on this thread, of all threads.

Yes, like the executive decision to close the locals, because that went over so well with people.

As Anaris said, we do need to learn to get along without needing to fear a thunderbolt, because otherwise people will just ignore etiquette once they feel they can get away with it.