Limited Wars

[Indirik]

Battlemaster functions much the same way, despite it being a unique game in many aspects. Look at game worlds today versus five or more years ago. It's most obvious on the Colonies, but is present on all other maps except Dwilight and Beluaterra. Some realms have grown increasingly large, massive even, and the overall number of realms has fallen.

OK, I see what you mean with that. I thought it was something like that, but I wanted to make sure.

IMO, the reduced number of realms is due to the low player density. Crank up the density, and you'll start to see realms fall apart due to internal pressures. The way it is now, players generally have all the titles they want or can handle. If not, then they would generate more conflict trying to get them. This lack of internal pressure is why you end up with monstrous behemoths like Sirion, Perdan, Arcaea, Morek, Astrum, etc....

There are several game mechanics to limit this kind of spread. As they grow larger there are multiplying penalties that begin to grow, especially if a realm grows out of proportion to the rest of the realms on the island. Perhaps those penalties need to be increased.

[Valast]

Perhaps those penalties need to be increased.

Or perhaps new incentives need to be provided.  I understand the thinking of using mechanics to make things harder for those realms... but that is an idea of control.  Control will always leave the people being controlled feeling like they are being messed over.

Instead, find a way to empower.  Provide some reason for someone to secede a city or start a rebellion...or for a count to move a region to another realm.

The spirit of this game has never been about it controlling the players but about empowering them to go and do crazy awesome things.  I am not talking about creating new classes or protection for new realms.  Just bump up infiltrator skill advances... or provide a honor vs infamy scale for characters or the family gold idea I mentioned earlier.

[de Aquitane]

What about giving the ruler a personal sort of "realm upkeep" cost that doubles (or something) with each duchy. The sort of thing where with one duchy it's irrelevant, but with 3 he needs to start taxing the Dukes, and at 4 the Dukes actually would make money from succesfully departing from the realm. This is a stick solution, but I feel the issue comes from the "sweetspot" that is being a Duke in a big realm, and the lack of reason for Emperors to turn crazy megalomaniacs.

But with the current player distribution it might not be the best thing to encourage smaller realms. It's boring to be split into <20 people entities, depending on the people of course.

[Indirik]

All that would do is encourage realms to have only one, huge duchy.

[de Aquitane]

I thought there were already some penalties for that. If not, the same system could be used for big duchies too. Or stick something else, like recruitment. I realize as I write now that what I really suggest, is turning the current large realm penalty that lowers production on the region level, into a top heavy model. No Lord will blame the ruler for not being able to put taxes to 20%, but if a large realm forces the rulers and dukes to tax more it might make ruling a large realm harder. Nobody likes being taxed.

[GoldPanda]

What about something like Europa Universalis's infamy mechanic? (Not that different from the realm honor suggestion earlier.)
http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Reputation

Of course we'll need a more complex and formalized war mechanic to go with it. Then TOing a region will not be the same as formally absorbing it. At the end of a war, realms "settle up", and those that took regions without historical (or fabricated!) claims gain infamy. Infamy slowly go down over time. If your realm's infamy becomes too high, then every other realm can take your regions without accruing infamy themselves. We can introduce additional penalties for high infamy to discourage it if necessary.

[Jaden]

There are several game mechanics to limit this kind of spread. As they grow larger there are multiplying penalties that begin to grow, especially if a realm grows out of proportion to the rest of the realms on the island. Perhaps those penalties need to be increased.

Has the mechanics changed? The penalties seems to be more lenient than 5-6 years ago. Back then i thought 2 city realms in the colonies were the absolute practical limit and 5-6 cities in other island.

[Vellos]

Has the mechanics changed? The penalties seems to be more lenient than 5-6 years ago. Back then i thought 2 city realms in the colonies were the absolute practical limit and 5-6 cities in other island.

Actually, I've ben curious about this as well, because that's my perception also, that it's easier to sustain a large realm these days than several years ago.

[egamma]

Actually, I've ben curious about this as well, because that's my perception also, that it's easier to sustain a large realm these days than several years ago.

With the new estate system came a lot of changes to made BuroMaster a thing of the past. We don't need any courtiers anymore, as long as taxes are set reasonably. The downside is that the large realm penalties can simply be negated by lowering the taxes by just a tiny bit.

[Tiridia]

You could make a soft cap against large realms this way:

Cities produce documents. Distant regions that do not produce documents require them in order to maintain some vital regional stat. If you fail to support your region with enough documents, it will require increasingly more bureaucratic work and courts to maintain it - the more so the biggest your realm is and the furthest you are from the capital.

So, you can have a large realm, but it will cost you the price of the documents that you buy from foreign cities that do not need them so badly.

[Jaden]

You could make a soft cap against large realms this way:

Cities produce documents. Distant regions that do not produce documents require them in order to maintain some vital regional stat. If you fail to support your region with enough documents, it will require increasingly more bureaucratic work and courts to maintain it - the more so the biggest your realm is and the furthest you are from the capital.

So, you can have a large realm, but it will cost you the price of the documents that you buy from foreign cities that do not need them so badly.

I dont see that as a soft cap against large realms as i understand it, the only thing it will limit is taking over too much regions that are not cities. And large rural realms with minimal number of cities are not that big of a threat to anything at all.

[Tiridia]

I dont see that as a soft cap against large realms as i understand it, the only thing it will limit is taking over too much regions that are not cities. And large rural realms with minimal number of cities are not that big of a threat to anything at all.

What is your definition of "large"? Mine implies that it is a realm that has many regions. Rural regions are regions too. What am I missing here?

[Jaden]

Cities produce documents.

This. You will just need more cities if you want to have more non-city regions. Heck, Sirion has like 7 cities?

[Tiridia]

This. You will just need more cities if you want to have more non-city regions. Heck, Sirion has like 7 cities?

Hmm, I suppose I was thinking with Dwilight perspective, as I do not play anywhere else.

[Tom]

Anaris has long had an idea for a way to do this, by adding a new "Infrastructure" stat. Infrastructure would then be the condition of the physical structures used to produce things, both crops and goods. This stuff would be hard for an invading army to destroy,

Unfortunately, in the middle ages almost everything was way easier to destroy then to construct. If it can burn, you can destroy it with a torch and 30 seconds of your time. And most things were made of wood.

Entire villages being burnt to the ground was way too common for comfort.

I completely agree that we need to put a stop to the "loot rogue" abuse.