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[Stue (DC)]

As a player I have strong feeling that most of socializing, political
 intrigue, major decision agreements are moved to ForumMaster to the
extent that it is almost impossible to establish communication - even
 on level of mere courtesy - via in-game messaging, in so many realms.
 Most of my characters are frequently changing realms in hope to find
 ones where at least minimal communication exists.

 Messages within many realms are so rare - even with char who is member
of most of message groups - that for many realms it would be
 impossible to function if there were no other means of communication.


This is what I sent to Tom some days ago, and he advised me to share it to the forum. As I developed strong repulsion toward forums, I was quite reluctant to do so, but now seeing that something is going on, with this lock of locals, I have decided to go with it.

I would add few more simple points:

- If people that spend much effort to elaborate thoughts, give comments about characters and situations on forums would add minimal effort to shape it into in-character style and post it in-game, current game would be largely improved as well as player's interest.
- It seems that many players have forgotten, some new maybe did not learn as well - that all of us are friends, not only those with whom you are chatting on forums or those whom you know in real-world.
- No matter which level of rp-ing we want to run into, as a minimum, it is completely normal that you have enemies in-game, betray or backstab your ooc friends, have good friendship with one in-game character but hate the other, change your stance toward some family, use any kind of in-character tricks and plots. In times when I was playing chess, I used many tricks to win, but never remember that anyone hated me outside the game. I believe it should be absolutely the same in BM, without that most of thrill is lost.
- Personally I see no any single reason why any day-to-day operation of realm functioning should be moved to different channels, like forums, irc. There are so many options within game - armies, guilds, standing orders, stewards, automatic orders etc. that I cannot imagine what should be done more efficiently by ooc means.

[Dante Silverfire]

Hi, nice to see your post.

I definitely agree with you that all day-to-day operations of realm functioning should occur within the game (and realm) and not through the forum or irc by any means.

I can only speak for myself, but that is how I run my realm at least. I focus on all character related information being sent in-game and making sure that I try and send a public message from my ruler to the realm as a whole at least once every three days or so to encourage discussion and keep the realm up-to-date on how things are going.

Granted, I also use the forum and irc. I use the forum mainly for finding out what is occuring on continents I am not playing on, or discussing island wide events, which I am already aware of for continents I am on. In irc, I do discuss things with other players, but primarily it is just chatting. We chat about stuff happening in real life, movies to see, etc... and don't really do any actual real planning in irc channels.

That is just my thoughts though. So while I understand how "forummaster" can be seen as harmful, I don't believe that has been my personal experience.

Thank you for your input.

[Anaris]

I haven't seen this. At all.

Every realm I am in—and every realm I have been in since the forums opened—has had plenty of talk in it. New players (and characters) who actually speak up are responded to within a relatively short time. Intrigue happens in-game (or, if it happens outside the game, it's certainly not on the forum—far too public!). Communication between realms happens in-game. Establishing relations happens in-game.

I have not seen even the merest suggestion of "any day-to-day operation of realm functioning" happening on the forums. People use the forums to talk with people outside their realm about their realm. They talk to people inside their realm...in the game. Inside their realm.

What happens on the forum is stuff like people saying, "Hey, I have a free character slot and I don't know where would be good to put the character," and other people responding with information about their realms. Some of this information is helpful (actually describing the realm's atmosphere), some is not. Overall, it seems to produce pretty good results.

Frankly, I think you're having the same problem that Tom is: you come into this with a "strong repulsion toward forums," so you assume the worst about them, and when you look at them, you only see the few bad things, then assume they're the norm.

[Indirik]

- Personally I see no any single reason why any day-to-day operation of realm functioning should be moved to different channels, like forums, irc. There are so many options within game - armies, guilds, standing orders, stewards, automatic orders etc. that I cannot imagine what should be done more efficiently by ooc means.

Like Anaris, I have never seen any indication that this is happening. Perhaps you are looking at things from a different perspective than we are? Can you provide some examples of this? Most helpful would be a link or two that points out a specific occurrence of it.

[Perth]

I would say this particular complaint about the forum cannot be founded on much fact.

Like many, including Tom, have pointed out the majority of the player base does not use the forum that much. There is a very small group of players (20 or so) who use the forum a lot, however because those players also happen to make up most of the games biggest "movers" and contributors most of those 20 or so big forum users play in different realms, which is why the forum, and the Locals forum in particular, is such a hot bed for arguments, flaming, etc.

I am not trying to dismiss your claim, however I would urge you to consider the fact that most of the people who make the biggest use of the forum are not usually playing the same realms and thus could not be substituting their in-realm interaction with with the forum.

But as Indirik has said, some examples would go a long way to explaining your point better.

[Stue (DC)]

I haven't seen this. At all.

...

so i hope you may assume that there are players with different experiences. i can imagine that you are mostly playing in very the same realms most of time, and know some characters for years. and very few things changed in that time.

i am prone to avoid such realms, for the very same thing you may like it. if i see there is no any changes for years, i prefer to go to more "dynamic" realms. such realms are often destroyed, so i have to change realms often.

that gave me large sample. and when i am "testing" new realm, it often lasts not less than six months to year or even more.

[Stue (DC)]

Granted, I also use the forum and irc. I use the forum mainly for finding out what is occuring on continents I am not playing on, or discussing island wide events, which I am already aware of for continents I am on. In irc, I do discuss things with other players, but primarily it is just chatting. We chat about stuff happening in real life, movies to see, etc... and don't really do any actual real planning in irc channels.

that is how i tried to use forums in last few years, when i was not posting at all.

yes, you can find sometimes some interesting information about other continents, but  you can find even more what could be considered almost in-game play, but posted in plain words that have no any flavor, while sucking blood from in-game grievances.

if you remember times of wiki newspapers, can you compare it? in my view, one good wiki newspaper is more worthy and informative than the whole continental forum, and being prepared with in-character style, it was really pleasure to read many of them. in-character style of wiki newspapers was bringing additional value to the game - it was bringing more thrill and flavor to in-game political activities, something like outside roleplay that was focused on the most important realm events.

[Anaris]

so i hope you may assume that there are players with different experiences. i can imagine that you are mostly playing in very the same realms most of time, and know some characters for years. and very few things changed in that time.

i am prone to avoid such realms, for the very same thing you may like it. if i see there is no any changes for years, i prefer to go to more "dynamic" realms. such realms are often destroyed, so i have to change realms often.

that gave me large sample. and when i am "testing" new realm, it often lasts not less than six months to year or even more.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the forums.

Are you ever actually going to back up your accusations against the forums? Because that was the main point of your original post, and that is what everyone here has asked for. Thus far, it sounds like you're just trying to tell me that your BM experience is more valid than mine.

[Stabbity]

that is how i tried to use forums in last few years, when i was not posting at all.

yes, you can find sometimes some interesting information about other continents, but  you can find even more what could be considered almost in-game play, but posted in plain words that have no any flavor, while sucking blood from in-game grievances.

As someone who has played on every continent, and in a variety of realms, I seriously doubt your claims. I read the forums a lot and I don't see anything that supports you claim. I do a lot of moving and shaking and have a lot of eyes and ears in game and I will say this: realms that are more active on the forums are more active in game than those who aren't (in large part anyway). Show us some posts where people are sending orders and coordinating civil work or planning entire duchies switching allegiance. You haven't yet.

[Tom]

Guys, I think you are missing the point:

Truth doesn't matter, impression does. If a player new to or just interested in the game sees a lot of political discussions on the official forum, he will assume that he will need to follow the forum in order to stay up-to-date on in-game events. And with that one impression his mental model will double the estimated time requirement for the game.

It doesn't matter if his impression is wrong. You will never get the chance to discuss it with him and correct it.

[Anaris]

Guys, I think you are missing the point:

Truth doesn't matter, impression does. If a player new to or just interested in the game sees a lot of political discussions on the official forum, he will assume that he will need to follow the forum in order to stay up-to-date on in-game events. And with that one impression his mental model will double the estimated time requirement for the game.

It doesn't matter if his impression is wrong. You will never get the chance to discuss it with him and correct it.

First of all, Stue isn't new.

Second of all, I disagree with your premise.

Third of all, I don't think there ever were "a lot of political discussions" on the forum, at least not of that sort. The discussions on the forum were primarily between realms. I do not recall there ever, ever, EVER being a discussion on the Locals section of the forum that was a political discussion between members of the same realm that could or should have been held in-game.

Frankly, Tom, if people can come to the forum and get the impression you mention, I really don't bloody well care, because they're idiots.

And, by the way, this is exactly the point a dozen people have been trying to make to you, which you seem to be completely ignoring, and that's really aggravating.

[Indirik]

It doesn't matter if his impression is wrong. You will never get the chance to discuss it with him and correct it.

What I'm trying to figure out is what is giving Stue this impression. I don't remember ever seeing anything like what he is describing. If he is willing to point out examples, then perhaps we can come to understand  what it is that is bugging him.

It's like if someone walks into your house and says that it's ugly as hell, and walks out. You would really like to fix it, and make it so that your guests enjoy your house when they visit.  But if they won't tell you why they think your house is ugly, then how can you fix it? So what you do is ask the guy: "Why do you think my house is ugly? Please tell me, so I can fix it." It's supremely unhelpful when all you get is "It's ugly, it deserves to be torn down."

[Sacha]

One man's friendliness is another man's sales pitch

[Stabbity]

Everyone stop:

You allowed Tom to sidetrack this entire post.

This post is not debating the friendliness of the forum, it is discussing an unfounded claim that realms are being run on the forums, which is not true in the slightest and there is ZERO proof to back this. We can direct the merits of the local boards and the friendliness and !@#$ in the thread already dedicated to it.

[egamma]

Offtopic posts moved to the 'forummaster' thread.