Author Topic: OOC comments insulting another player Case  (Read 11040 times)

Buffalkill

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
    • View Profile
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #30: September 08, 2013, 04:32:38 AM »
Nor does it matter. The particular messages for the case are judged because someone thought they were worthy of a case. That's how our system works: Nobody does anything unless someone calls for help, i.e. brings a case.


I'm just throwing in my 2 shillings worth like everyone else. I thought that was the point of the forum.

Penchant

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3121
    • View Profile
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #31: September 08, 2013, 09:00:33 AM »

Sure it does. I don't know him either, but yes, he seems like a kid who doesn't play nice with others, based on what little I've seen. I probably wouldn't even chime in on this case, except it seemed like there were several people with positions of authority against one, and the one can't defend himself. Also, I don't know what else he did to piss people off, but I thought the OOC messages specifically for this case were pretty mild...obnoxious and bitchy yes, but not worthy of a federal case IMO. But like I said, I don't know what else he's done.
One thing it seems you haven't been paying attention to, is that he can defend himself. If you read the thread with the actual case, you would have seen:
As Tom was writing the above note, I was in the process of dropping his warning level...
Which has not changed, he still can talk. Kai has been posting, he simply hasn't been on in the last few days. As to the issue of referring to violators that were muted on the forums as acting like an [email protected]#$%^&, I do not approve of it but I am not going to condemn it either at this time.

The moderators made the poor choice, which is certainly partially my fault, of making the rule for not allowing insults and such, "Don't be an [email protected]#$%^&. No insulting or derogatory behavior toward other players or forum users," which implies those whose who break that rule are being an [email protected]#$%^&, which may or may not be true, the issue being leaders give an example and when we implicitly say they are being [email protected]#$%^&s, then members of the forum will see it ok to say those who break that rule are being [email protected]#$%^&s.

Two other things I would like state. One, stating he is being an [email protected]#$%^&, does not mean he is one simply that he is acting like one at the present time, which is certainly what Geronus's post sounds like. Otherwise, he would have just said why let an [email protected]#$%^& post in the Magistrates board and cause more trouble, but instead he said that if they had been an [email protected]#$%^& elsewhere, why let the issue get worse by letting them post again for their Magistrates Case.

I am definitely for the policy because it takes several big issues in a short span of time or issues happening frequently in order to be muted, showing they are having issues following the rules, and Magistrates can become very heated making it even more likely for the player to have issues following the rules. I see nothing wrong with someone who keeps having issues following the rules have to send their defence to the Magistrates via PM who can then decide if it is necessary and/or appropriate to be posted in the thread. They can still defend themselves, but have to do a little bit more work because they keep having issues following the rules.

Tom

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8191
    • View Profile
    • BattleMaster
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #32: September 08, 2013, 02:31:53 PM »
stating he is being an [email protected]#$%^&, does not mean he is one simply that he is acting like one at the present time,

Thought I must say that the subtle difference between "he is an [email protected]#$%^&" and "he is being an [email protected]#$%^&" is very easy to miss, especially for non-native speakers.

Buffalkill

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
    • View Profile
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #33: September 08, 2013, 05:55:34 PM »
One thing it seems you haven't been paying attention to, is that he can defend himself. If you read the thread with the actual case, you would have seen: Which has not changed, he still can talk. Kai has been posting, he simply hasn't been on in the last few days.


I did see that, and I saw Kai's rebuttal. There was still a power imbalance IMO and at some point Kai asked for others who were not moderators to chime in. I probably would've stayed out of it if he hadn't asked.


As to the issue of referring to violators that were muted on the forums as acting like an [email protected]#$%^&, I do not approve of it but I am not going to condemn it either at this time.

The moderators made the poor choice, which is certainly partially my fault, of making the rule for not allowing insults and such, "Don't be an [email protected]#$%^&. No insulting or derogatory behavior toward other players or forum users," which implies those whose who break that rule are being an [email protected]#$%^&, which may or may not be true, the issue being leaders give an example and when we implicitly say they are being [email protected]#$%^&s, then members of the forum will see it ok to say those who break that rule are being [email protected]#$%^&s.


I wouldn't have a problem with it if not for the appearance of a double-standard. There is quite a bit of similarity between Kai's OOC msgs and Geronus's commentary. They both were about "some people", and we know who "some people" are in both cases. But Velax was much more to-the-point when he said, "What's that saying? 'If everybody you meet is an [email protected]#$%^&, then you're the [email protected]#$%^&.'" It's clearly personal, but he used "scare quotes" so it's like "I didn't call him an [email protected]#$%^&, I'm just quoting."


Two other things I would like state. One, stating he is being an [email protected]#$%^&, does not mean he is one simply that he is acting like one at the present time, which is certainly what Geronus's post sounds like.


Yes, you can argue that they were attacking Kevin's [email protected]#$%^& behaviour, not Kevin as a person. But then you should also look at Kevin's OOC msg through the same lens: He was attacking his team mate's game play decisions, not calling him a bad person.

Anaris

  • BM Dev Team
  • Honourable King
  • *
  • Posts: 7679
    • View Profile
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #34: September 08, 2013, 06:24:27 PM »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Buffalkill

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
    • View Profile
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #35: September 08, 2013, 07:48:40 PM »
You keep talking about a power imbalance, as if it were something that had any bearing on the case. It doesn't. The Magistrates vote based on their own interpretations of the rules and the facts of the case, not based on whether their "old boys' club buddies" agree with them and slap them on the back the whole way.


It affects the fairness of the process. If you're going to have a procedure under the guise of ensuring fairness, you might as well try to make it actually fair. In this case, one side was being argued more than the other, and by some of the same people who are judging the case.  Presumably the Magistrates should at least consider both sides of the argument when making a decision, and they shouldn't be making the complainant's case for him. Whoever submitted the complaint should be the one making the case that he was insulted.


Second thing: You all said that the only thing that matters is: were the 2 OOC msgs insulting, yes/no. He was not allowed to try to put his msgs in context, because you and others said, the context doesn't matter. At the same time, you and others have repeatedly cited Kai's supposed history of pissing people off. So you can put it in context (your context) but he can't, because the Mods/Mags threatened to delete anything they considered irrelevant.


and they don't get to use a case against them as another venue for insulting and belittling people.


Apparenlty Mods/Mags do get to use it as a venue for insulting and belittling people. E.g.:


Then maybe you should have done so privately with him, rather than your passive aggressive "teenager-on-Facebook insulting someone without mentioning them by name" [email protected]#$.

If you're getting constant warnings from the Mods and now Magistrate cases against you, have you ever stopped to think maybe you're the one in the wrong, rather than everyone else? What's that saying? "If everyone you meet is an [email protected]#$%^&, then you're the [email protected]#$%^&."

Gustav Kuriga

  • Guest
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #36: September 08, 2013, 08:15:36 PM »
Buffalkill, you are completely and utterly in the wrong here. Kai has repeatedly abused the mods and other players on this forum with sardonic comments. He has trolled several threads on which there was a serious discussion going on, and I personally will be glad if he gets muted again. As someone who on bad days tends to hide barbs at others within an argument, I know what to look for when seeing if someone is trying to insult, especially if they are trying to be clever about it.

I myself have been punished by the mods on occasion, including one point where I could not post for several days. I have much, much more reason to have been crying wolf towards the mods than you do, but I don't because I realize they are just doing what they are supposed to.

Buffalkill

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
    • View Profile
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #37: September 08, 2013, 08:38:19 PM »
I know Gustav, I'm getting used to being wrong.  ;)  If he's abused people in the forum in the past, then punish him for those abuses. But as Tom said, this case is about the 2 OOC msgs, not whatever happened in the past. If he's found "guilty", then by all means look at his record for determining his punishment, but not for deciding his guilt or innocence.

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #38: September 08, 2013, 09:07:10 PM »
Which is pretty much exactly what's happening.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

egamma

  • Guest
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #39: September 08, 2013, 09:18:05 PM »
If you're going to have a procedure under the guise of ensuring fairness, you might as well try to make it actually fair.

Magistrate cases are not about fairness. They are about justice in the matter of violations of the Inalienable Rights and the Social contract.

Quote
In this case, one side was being argued more than the other, and by some of the same people who are judging the case.

That's how the Magistrates work. In fact, they have a private board that not even I can see where they discuss the case amongst themselves. They are judge, jury, and executioners.

Quote
Presumably the Magistrates should at least consider both sides of the argument when making a decision, and they shouldn't be making the complainant's case for him. Whoever submitted the complaint should be the one making the case that he was insulted.

I submitted the case, but I was not the one insulted. I saw my fellow player being insulted OOC, in violation of the Social Contract, and I submitted a Case. The Courthouse Rules clearly state:

Quote
You can, and in fact are encouraged to, bring cases even if you are not affected. If you see someone violating the right of another player, do speak up on behalf of that other player. He may not dare to or know how.

So no, I should not be making the case. I submitted the evidence, and it's up to the Magistrates to decide if the evidence proves a violation of the Social Contract or IR's.

And, as for Geronus and whether he insulted Kai or not:
Quote
Any complaints about Magistrates or their behavior have to go through e-mail to [email protected] and absolutely nowhere else.

Moderators aren't supposed to moderate the magistrates in the Courthouse board.

Buffalkill

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
    • View Profile
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #40: September 09, 2013, 12:18:24 AM »
Which is pretty much exactly what's happening.
It doesn't look like it.

Penchant

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3121
    • View Profile
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #41: September 09, 2013, 01:40:27 AM »
It doesn't look like it.
Yes it does. Please quit seemingly trying to prove that people are out to get Kai, and read the thread.
Tom is absolutely right. The only item of any relevance to this case raised so far is the original complaint, which is unequivocally a violation of the Social Contract. Nothing anyone else has said has any bearing on that.

Please keep the rest of your posts to the subject at hand. I will likely delete anything off topic from this point forward.

Buffalkill

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
    • View Profile
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #42: September 09, 2013, 03:06:25 AM »
Magistrate cases are not about fairness. They are about justice in the matter of violations of the Inalienable Rights and the Social contract.


After this is finished, you'll have explain to me how fairness and justice are mutually exclusive.


That's how the Magistrates work. In fact, they have a private board that not even I can see where they discuss the case amongst themselves. They are judge, jury, and executioners.

Point?

I submitted the case, but I was not the one insulted. I saw my fellow player being insulted OOC, in violation of the Social Contract, and I submitted a Case. The Courthouse Rules clearly state:

So no, I should not be making the case. I submitted the evidence, and it's up to the Magistrates to decide if the evidence proves a violation of the Social Contract or IR's.


You don't have to be the insulted party, but if you're the one making the complaint, you should at least be able to justify your complaint, instead of just kicking it to the Magistrates to look after it for you. It's already well known that the Mods have animosity towards Kai, but if the "insulted player" didn't see fit to make a complaint, and so far hasn't contributed to this discussion, then maybe he wasn't as insulted as you claim he was.


Tom said, "Nobody does anything unless someone calls for help." Well, the insulted player did not call for help. You did, because you saw an opportunity to exploit a provision in the rules to bring a case against someone you dislike.

And, as for Geronus and whether he insulted Kai or not:
Moderators aren't supposed to moderate the magistrates in the Courthouse board.


Point?

Buffalkill

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 503
    • View Profile
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #43: September 09, 2013, 03:14:23 AM »
Yes it does. Please quit seemingly trying to prove that people are out to get Kai, and read the thread.


Actually Penchant, I didn't truly believe the Moderators were out to get Kai until I read the thread, and now every posting I read from "the ruling class" strengthens that believe.


Addendum: Precious few postings have focused on the 2 OOC msgs, while most of you are focusing on how much of an [email protected]#$%^& Kai is.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 03:20:44 AM by Buffalkill »

Gustav Kuriga

  • Guest
Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #44: September 09, 2013, 05:04:52 AM »
After this is finished, you'll have explain to me how fairness and justice are mutually exclusive.

Who said they were? Or to ask the real question, who said they were mutually inclusive? Just because you can have fairness coupled with justice on the forums, doesn't mean that they will be.