Author Topic: OOC comments insulting another player Case  (Read 10542 times)

Eirikr

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #75: September 10, 2013, 07:06:47 AM »
Before I say anything else, I want to thank Buffalkill for holding in there with his thoughts. Though it may be hard to tell, I'm detecting genuine concern, not stubbornness. (Sorry, I didn't know how to say that in a more polite way.) I'm sure it's taking a massive amount of patience and time. He is raising good points, but there are also good counters. He doesn't have to defend or answer anything in this thread, but he is taking time to do so. This deserves recognition, whether or not you agree with him.

That argument arose when I pointed out that 2 forum users insulted Kai by calling him an '[email protected]#$%^&' on this thread, and a few people were falling all over themselves to excuse it by saying that they weren't really calling him an [email protected]#$%^&, it was just shorthand for saying that he was behaving like an [email protected]#$%^&. Whatever.

I'll give you this one, as Tom already has. I understand the distinction, but it is still not the correct way to go about this. Fair trial or not, a level of respect should be maintained for all involved. It's too late for this case, but may it be a lesson for the future.

That said, you dodged the main point I was getting at. Not only can I not see how those two different lines of logic are connected (that is, criticizing gameplay to pointing out poor word choice), I still do not see why it isn't an insult. Criticism can still be insulting, true or not. It's in the delivery; in this case, the delivery was exceptionally poor and frankly, unnecessary given the ways IC to deal with it. People make mistakes, part of the beauty of BM is that anyone, at any time, can screw up that perfect plan you've been cooking for months or years. Talk to my good friend Merlin: He's probably the one I've seen hit that wall the most, and I still kick myself for screwing up his last one, despite it playing out according to my character.

And then also I had argued that BattleMaster is a team sport, and as a member of a team you ought to be able to criticize your teammates. Kai didn't say, for example, "You're too stupid to play BM" or "You suck because you're from country X," or anything like that. He was expressing his frustration with his teammate.
Yes, feel free to criticize your teammates... in character. Bringing it OOC is completely unnecessary. Regardless of if it is the character or player that is limited in strategic capability, there are plenty of ways to just deal with it. You're right, he didn't say anything as you quote here... But he comes shockingly close to "You're too stupid to play BM". Must it be so painfully obvious before it is considered insulting? He indicated, in no uncertain terms, that the other player "love[d] power and position" and "throws tantrums". I don't think I've ever heard a single person on the planet Earth use the word "tantrum" unless they were trying to incense the other person. (It's like telling an angry person to calm down. Only ever makes it worse.) To me, the "love power and position" is a particularly odd choice for plain criticism... Aren't power and position the only actual forms of progression in the game?

I'll grant you that this could be considered circumstantial evidence; there's a measure of interpretation. Unfortunately for Kai, the interpretation is both necessary and intuitively followed.

I don't think it's relevant. There's no end to BM as there is in, say, a football game. So what? We're not talking about whether or not his critique was well-founded, as all of the "prosecutors" have strenuously pointed out to me, no matter whether I needed to hear it or not. It doesn't matter if we agree or disagree with his critique, he should be allowed say it, and his realm mates are allowed to refute it if they disagree.
Ah, but it is. The Social Contract and Inalienable Rights were created (please correct me if I'm wrong) to help shape a friendly atmosphere for casual players. That atmosphere is further centered around a game that nobody can win and everybody is equal, to a large extent. The objective is not, never has been, and never will be to conquer an entire continent or to win wars. The objective is to create a simulation of a medieval world, rife with interactions both good and bad from your character's perspective. As a direct result, Kai's character could have and should have protested the Royal Marshal, sent letters (legitimately) criticizing the poor orders and giving new ones, or started a family feud. I'm sure you can come up with even more of your own options. We're seeing only a small slice of time here, but this looks to me like a single (perhaps not even key) mistake... hardly worth the response. (That said, I also agree the two-character approach was poor, but it did go through the proper channels and does not break any rules (whether Kai feels it should or not).

He has chosen to go OOC with his comments, circumventing the wide swath of opportunities to actually play the game or resolve this in a reasonable manner.

Now, do I believe he should be crucified for this alone? Not really, no. The nail in the coffin is that he is utterly unapologetic and sees absolutely nothing wrong with his approach. He makes it crystal clear that a warning or any kind of light punitive action would be absolutely meaningless.

EDIT: WOW, that yellow is obnoxious!

Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #76: September 10, 2013, 06:59:32 PM »
Yellow stuff.
I appreciate your saying so. At the end of the day we're all trying to make the game fun.


That said, you dodged the main point I was getting at. Not only can I not see how those two different lines of logic are connected (that is, criticizing gameplay to pointing out poor word choice), I still do not see why it isn't an insult. Criticism can still be insulting, true or not. It's in the delivery; in this case, the delivery was exceptionally poor and frankly, unnecessary given the ways IC to deal with it. People make mistakes, part of the beauty of BM is that anyone, at any time, can screw up that perfect plan you've been cooking for months or years. Talk to my good friend Merlin: He's probably the one I've seen hit that wall the most, and I still kick myself for screwing up his last one, despite it playing out according to my character.
Yes, to answer your question it's possible for criticism to also be insulting. In this case, I don't think the OOC msgs were offensive or damaging enough so as to require punitive intervention from above. I think the game is best served when interventions from above are rare and reserved for the most serious instances. I can think of a few quick examples: e.g. attacking someone's RL race, religion, nationality, family, intelligence etc. There may also be a case to be made for intervening when it's a pattern of offences even though they're relatively minor, but that's not the case that's being made here.

Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #77: September 10, 2013, 07:31:47 PM »
If I told someone on my football team they were a bad player, apart from being "unhelpful" criticism I would most likely just be told to stop being a jerk.


An option that is available to Kai's realm mates. If they think his comments are unhelpful or that he's being a jerk, they can hit 'Reply' and say so. In the football analogy, yes you might be told to stop being a jerk, but I doubt it would require the league officials to get involved.


and should probably think hard about how to improve their communications so that the criticism is received in way that will lead to positive outcomes.


No argument there!  :)

Sacha

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #78: September 10, 2013, 08:00:33 PM »

An option that is available to Kai's realm mates. If they think his comments are unhelpful or that he's being a jerk, they can hit 'Reply' and say so. In the football analogy, yes you might be told to stop being a jerk, but I doubt it would require the league officials to get involved.


And given his recent forum behavior and general attitude, do you really believe that would have solved the issue, and not, say, caused even more insults to fly back and forth, resulting in a realm-wide flame war without end?

Eirikr

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #79: September 10, 2013, 08:16:04 PM »
And given his recent forum behavior and general attitude, do you really believe that would have solved the issue, and not, say, caused even more insults to fly back and forth, resulting in a realm-wide flame war without end?

And, ultimately, more magistrates cases and more severe punishments.

Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #80: September 10, 2013, 08:45:48 PM »
And given his recent forum behavior and general attitude, do you really believe that would have solved the issue, and not, say, caused even more insults to fly back and forth, resulting in a realm-wide flame war without end?


I dunno. I think it's a waste of time trying to pre-empt hypothetical insults that might happen in the future. Much easier to deal with them when they come up.

Eirikr

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #81: September 10, 2013, 09:49:21 PM »

I dunno. I think it's a waste of time trying to pre-empt hypothetical insults that might happen in the future. Much easier to deal with them when they come up.

But they did... That's why this topic (not the case, but the q&a) came to be; here was debate over him serving the sentence for the insults that did come up.

If you find a leaky pipe, you look for more leaks or signs they may develop and tape them up immediately.

Indirik

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #82: September 10, 2013, 10:43:49 PM »
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #83: September 10, 2013, 11:04:44 PM »
But they did... That's why this topic (not the case, but the q&a) came to be; here was debate over him serving the sentence for the insults that did come up.

If you find a leaky pipe, you look for more leaks or signs they may develop and tape them up immediately.


I know. He asked me (rhetorically I believe) what would've happened if Kai's realm mates had simply dealt with his rudeness internally instead of bringing a Magistrate case, specifically whether I thought that doing so would've led to more insults. The obvious answer is...maybe.

Eirikr

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Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #85: September 11, 2013, 01:27:18 AM »
Did you not see that this actually happened? When Wade (the player at whom the first insult was directed) asked Keven to stop, Keven replied with the second insult accusing Wade of throwing a tantrum. Admittedly, this is a bit difficult to see from the wall of messages that egamma posted here: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5097.msg118944.html#msg118944


I did see it, and I think Wade handled it. Kevin looks like a kid throwing a tantrum and wanting to have the last word, and Wade looks like the bigger man. I guess I'm just not as fazed when I see somebody having a hissy fit. It doesn't look like Wade was fazed either. That's a sign of a good leader.  ;)

egamma

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #86: September 11, 2013, 06:24:53 AM »
If he was a newbie who subsequently quit the game as a result, I might be more inclined to throw the book at Kai.

Sorry, but that's not the right way to think about it. A violation is a violation is a violation, regardless of what the reaction (or non-reaction) of the insulted person might me.

Hypothetical: Let's say Bob smashes Joe's window. Is the degree of punishment that Bob deserves dependent on whether Joe decides to move or not? No, the degree of punishment (throwing the book) depends entirely on the offense, and not on the reaction of the victim.

Before I say anything else, I want to thank Buffalkill for holding in there with his thoughts. Though it may be hard to tell, I'm detecting genuine concern, not stubbornness. (Sorry, I didn't know how to say that in a more polite way.) I'm sure it's taking a massive amount of patience and time. He is raising good points, but there are also good counters. He doesn't have to defend or answer anything in this thread, but he is taking time to do so. This deserves recognition, whether or not you agree with him.

And I've got to agree with Eirikr here--I may not agree with you on most of these points, but it has been a polite and intellectual conversation, and although I hope I don't ever get a case brought against me, but if I do, I hope you'll defend me as well as you've defended Kai.  :D