OOC comments insulting another player Case

[Buffalkill]

In the future, I think I'd prefer to just have them make their case via PM to be reposted at our own discretion, particularly in light of how this one has been going.

In other words, if they've been an !@#$%^& everywhere else, there's absolutely no reason to assume that they won't be the same in a Magistrate case, which we clearly don't need. Leave the mute on, just let us know they've been muted so we can contact them directly to get their side of the story.

So a player is accused of insulting someone, and the person judging the case just called the accused an !@#$%^&. Do the powers that be make exceptions to the 'no insults' rule? What if somebody really dislikes the other person and finds him super annoying, do you let it slide?

No, we don't. Why would we? If he is insulting and breaking the Social Contract, does it matter why he does it? No, it doesn't. The Social Contract is absolute. It says "Do not insult or harass other players", and not "don't insult others unless you think you have a good reason".

What if he just said "someone" is being an !@#$%^&, but didn't technically say his name?

Then maybe you should have done so privately with him, rather than your passive aggressive "teenager-on-Facebook insulting someone without mentioning them by name" bull!@#$.

If you're getting constant warnings from the Mods and now Magistrate cases against you, have you ever stopped to think maybe you're the one in the wrong, rather than everyone else? What's that saying? "If everyone you meet is an !@#$%^&, then you're the !@#$%^&."

Ok, but a lot of people seem to dislike Kevin.

So?

It doesn't matter.


There is absolutely no justification for breaking the Social Contract. All this is just side-tracking the actual issue. Stop arguing as if you were in a court of law, you aren't.

Did he break the Social Contract? Yes or no. That is the ONLY thing that needs answering, everything else is utterly and completely irrelevant.

Don't you want to know the context?

No, we don't. Why would we? If he is insulting and breaking the Social Contract, does it matter why he does it? No, it doesn't. The Social Contract is absolute. It says "Do not insult or harass other players", and not "don't insult others unless you think you have a good reason".

Maybe Geronus  had a good reason for calling Kevin an !@#$%^&, right?

Tom is absolutely right. The only item of any relevance to this case raised so far is the original complaint, which is unequivocally a violation of the Social Contract. Nothing anyone else has said has any bearing on that.

Please keep the rest of your posts to the subject at hand. I will likely delete anything off topic from this point forward.

[Tom]

Don't you want to know the context?

No, I don't.

If you steal my wallet, I don't care if you did it out of greed, hunger, desparation or because you lost a bet. I'm missing a wallet and you're a thief and that's all there is to say about it.

What if he just said "someone" is being an !@#$%^&, but didn't technically say his name?

Bring a case. Well, since he said it on the forum, there is a handy "report" link you can click.

[Buffalkill]

There seem to be a lot of people aggressively going after Kai/Kevin for a so-called "insult" that was actually pretty tame. I wouldn't even call it an insult. It was a criticism of a peer's gameplay. Sure it was OOC, but it was related to the game, not the person. All the bleeding hearts who said he was "belittling" and "insulting" and whatever else they said, where are they when Moderators and Magistrates (the people running this game and this forum) insult and belittle a player by calling him an !@#$%^&? And even worse, because he can't defend himself because they silenced him. I guess I'm the only person to whom this looks like a personal vendetta. It looks like (some) people who hold positions of trust are bringing a trumped up case against someone because they don't like him.

Then maybe you should have done so privately with him, rather than your passive aggressive "teenager-on-Facebook insulting someone without mentioning them by name" bull!@#$.

If you're getting constant warnings from the Mods and now Magistrate cases against you, have you ever stopped to think maybe you're the one in the wrong, rather than everyone else? What's that saying? "If everyone you meet is an !@#$%^&, then you're the !@#$%^&."

In the future, I think I'd prefer to just have them make their case via PM to be reposted at our own discretion, particularly in light of how this one has been going.

In other words, if they've been an !@#$%^& everywhere else, there's absolutely no reason to assume that they won't be the same in a Magistrate case, which we clearly don't need. Leave the mute on, just let us know they've been muted so we can contact them directly to get their side of the story.

[Buffalkill]

If you steal my wallet, I don't care if you did it out of greed, hunger, desparation or because you lost a bet. I'm missing a wallet and you're a thief and that's all there is to say about it.

I understand. My point is, don't accuse someone of stealing your wallet, and then you steal their wallet.

Bring a case. Well, since he said it on the forum, there is a handy "report" link you can click.

Personally I don't have a problem with people speaking plainly. I don't like phony outrage, but that's not against the rules.

[Anaris]

There seem to be a lot of people aggressively going after Kai/Kevin for a so-called "insult" that was actually pretty tame.

And what you should be taking away from many of the posts responding to yours is that we disagree on this point. We think it was not that tame an insult. Furthermore, we know that Kai has a history of being belittling, derogatory, and insulting to other players, OOC.

All the bleeding hearts who said he was "belittling" and "insulting" and whatever else they said, where are they when Moderators and Magistrates (the people running this game and this forum) insult and belittle a player by calling him an !@#$%^&? And even worse, because he can't defend himself because they silenced him. I guess I'm the only person to whom this looks like a personal vendetta. It looks like (some) people who hold positions of trust are bringing a trumped up case against someone because they don't like him.

First of all, if you read the post Geronus made, he wasn't talking directly about Kai. He was talking about future "people who have been an !@#$%^& everywhere else, then had a Magistrates case raised against them."

Second of all, there's a big difference between saying to someone, "You are an !@#$%^&," and describing someone's behaviour as being that of an !@#$%^&. In this case, though perhaps his wording was injudicious, I saw him as using "being an !@#$%^&" as shorthand for "being rude, insulting, demeaning, belittling, and in various other ways making the people around him miserable."

Finally, if you honestly think that Geronus's words rise to the level that deserve some sort of punishment, then report them to the moderators. Or open a Magistrates case against him. Bitching and moaning, whether on the forum, on IRC, in the game, in private emails or forum messages, or anywhere else but in an official report is just pointless whining. If you see anyone, anywhere in the BattleMaster community, doing something that you think is wrong, and you don't bring it to the proper authorities, by the proper channels, you have no right to complain about those authorities doing nothing about that behaviour.

[Anaris]

Personally I don't have a problem with people speaking plainly.

Do you accept that there are rules against being rude and insulting, even when you personally would deem that "speaking plainly"?

Or do you think that everyone should have the same values as you, and just accept being belittled and verbally abused?

I don't like phony outrage, but that's not against the rules.

Do you accept that there exists real outrage, even when it's outrage over something you don't have a problem with?

[Tom]

I understand. My point is, don't accuse someone of stealing your wallet, and then you steal their wallet.

That's not a point. If I steal your wallet out of revenge, you are still a thief. All I changed was that I'm now a thief, too. But it changes absolutely nothing at all about the first theft.

[Buffalkill]

Do you accept that there are rules against being rude and insulting, even when you personally would deem that "speaking plainly"?
[...]
Do you accept that there exists real outrage, even when it's outrage over something you don't have a problem with?

Yes and yes. People are allowed to disagree with me, but we're not talking about that, are we. Kevin's messages are the issue, and while reasonable people can disagree about whether he broke the rules or not, when (some of) his accusers insult him in more egregious terms, either they're being disingenuous about their outrage, OR they don't hold themselves to the same standard that they hold other people. Either way it's problematic when they're also "the keepers" of the rules, because it looks like they're abusing their position.

That's not a point. If I steal your wallet out of revenge, you are still a thief. All I changed was that I'm now a thief, too. But it changes absolutely nothing at all about the first theft.

Yes, I understood your point the first time and I agree.

[Geronus]

As Anaris said, I was not referring to Kai specifically. I was making a general point. If someone has enough points to get muted on the forum, presumably it's because they've been unfriendly, rude, insulting, whatever - and probably not just once.

[egamma]

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5071.msg119080.html#msg119080

This is precisely why we've removed the word "!@#$%^&" from the proposed rules of conduct.

[Buffalkill]

And what you should be taking away from many of the posts responding to yours is that we disagree on this point. We think it was not that tame an insult.

So...you're saying everybody agrees with me?    Anaris, you keep trying to convince me that my opinion's not universally shared, as if you think I thought otherwise. This is, however, a forum where people debate and discuss ideas.

Furthermore, we know that Kai has a history of being belittling, derogatory, and insulting to other players, OOC.

That might be relevant for deciding on a penalty, but not for deciding whether or not his remarks were insulting.

First of all, if you read the post Geronus made, he wasn't talking directly about Kai. He was talking about future "people who have been an !@#$%^& everywhere else, then had a Magistrates case raised against them."

Sure he was, just like Kevin was talking about some "future people who are terrible at the game and argue with both chars etc. etc."

Second of all, there's a big difference between saying to someone, "You are an !@#$%^&," and describing someone's behaviour as being that of an !@#$%^&. In this case, though perhaps his wording was injudicious, I saw him as using "being an !@#$%^&" as shorthand for "being rude, insulting, demeaning, belittling, and in various other ways making the people around him miserable."

I totally agree. But I think it's dishonest to excuse Geronus and while condemning Kevin.

Finally, if you honestly think that Geronus's words rise to the level that deserve some sort of punishment, then report them to the moderators. Or open a Magistrates case against him.

Like I said, I'm not trying to get anyone in trouble, I'm pointing out the apparent double-standard here.

[Buffalkill]

As Anaris said, I was not referring to Kai specifically. I was making a general point. If someone has enough points to get muted on the forum, presumably it's because they've been unfriendly, rude, insulting, whatever - and not probably not just once.

Am I really the only person that sees the irony in this, or are you guys messing with me?

[Tom]

Am I really the only person that sees the irony in this, or are you guys messing with me?

We aren't. Let's be plain here, Kai has been one of the most offensive people on this forum for the past month or so, and has accumulated a ton of moderation points, from 5 different moderators. So it's not like one or two people are out to get him. I don't know him personally and I don't even care. For all I know, he could be smart, friendly and helping elderly ladies cross the street all day. What matters to me is his behaviour in the game and on the forum. And if someone else with a different name behaves the same way next month, he'll get the same treatment.

Does that make more sense to you?

[Buffalkill]

We aren't. Let's be plain here, Kai has been one of the most offensive people on this forum for the past month or so, and has accumulated a ton of moderation points, from 5 different moderators. So it's not like one or two people are out to get him. I don't know him personally and I don't even care. For all I know, he could be smart, friendly and helping elderly ladies cross the street all day. What matters to me is his behaviour in the game and on the forum. And if someone else with a different name behaves the same way next month, he'll get the same treatment.

Does that make more sense to you?

Sure it does. I don't know him either, but yes, he seems like a kid who doesn't play nice with others, based on what little I've seen. I probably wouldn't even chime in on this case, except it seemed like there were several people with positions of authority against one, and the one can't defend himself. Also, I don't know what else he did to piss people off, but I thought the OOC messages specifically for this case were pretty mild...obnoxious and bitchy yes, but not worthy of a federal case IMO. But like I said, I don't know what else he's done.

[Tom]

I thought the OOC messages specifically for this case were pretty mild...obnoxious and bitchy yes, but not worthy of a federal case IMO. But like I said, I don't know what else he's done.

Nor does it matter. The particular messages for the case are judged because someone thought they were worthy of a case. That's how our system works: Nobody does anything unless someone calls for help, i.e. brings a case.