Author Topic: OOC comments insulting another player Case  (Read 28881 times)

Geronus

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #45: September 09, 2013, 06:39:07 AM »
It affects the fairness of the process. If you're going to have a procedure under the guise of ensuring fairness, you might as well try to make it actually fair. In this case, one side was being argued more than the other, and by some of the same people who are judging the case.

It doesn't matter who's making arguments, what matters is the arguments themselves. If they're good arguments, they'll carry weight with us. If they're not, they won't. And if many more people are arguing one way than the other, that probably says something about the relative strength of each side's argument. Sometimes we need to make our opinions clear in order to direct the discussion into areas that are useful to our deliberations.

Presumably the Magistrates should at least consider both sides of the argument when making a decision, and they shouldn't be making the complainant's case for him. Whoever submitted the complaint should be the one making the case that he was insulted.

We do. This case seems one-sided because it is. Do you honestly believe that the messages in question were not intended as insults? That's really the only argument that would possibly win the case for Kai, and it is not one that is particularly easy to make. If you feel strongly about it, then I invite you to make your argument in the case thread, and we'll consider it.

Tom

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #46: September 09, 2013, 08:46:30 AM »
Second thing: You all said that the only thing that matters is: were the 2 OOC msgs insulting, yes/no. He was not allowed to try to put his msgs in context, because you and others said, the context doesn't matter. At the same time, you and others have repeatedly cited Kai's supposed history of pissing people off. So you can put it in context (your context) but he can't, because the Mods/Mags threatened to delete anything they considered irrelevant.

Fair point, that.

Here's why I consider these two different things, but that doesn't mean I disagree. You do have a point there.

So why? One is putting the actual infraction into a context. But even doing so, it doesn't make it a non-infraction. i.e. my example of explaining why you stole my wallet - it might be interesting to a historian or a psychologist, but to the police it shouldn't matter.

The other is the background of the offender, and that does. In every court I know, it does matter if you're a first-time offender with a clean record so far, or a repeat offender. It matters because people make mistakes, and as a society we accept that, but at the same time we don't want evil people to use "sorry, didn't mean it" as a get-out-of-jail-free card all the time.

And that's why for BattleMaster I even created a rule that says "everyone is entitled to one warning". So this context is to check if Kai has had his warning already, or if he's a first-time offender.


Still, even with all that said, you do have a point. Background checking should be strictly limited to that one point: Did the offender already receive a warning for the same or a very similar behavior?

Tom

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #47: September 09, 2013, 09:06:58 AM »
Actually Penchant, I didn't truly believe the Moderators were out to get Kai until I read the thread, and now every posting I read from "the ruling class" strengthens that believe.

I hear these phrases repeatedly - "ruling class", "old boys club", and so on - allegations that there are organized groups within the game with special privileges.

But nobody ever publishes a member list. All this is is creating a false "us vs. them" feeling. It's not fair unless you can prove that such a group even exists.


Trust me, the Magistrates, Titans, moderators, even the dev team, are far from being one entity. There's quite a bit of differing opinions and in-fighting.

Meneldur

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #48: September 09, 2013, 11:13:19 AM »

Actually Penchant, I didn't truly believe the Moderators were out to get Kai until I read the thread, and now every posting I read from "the ruling class" strengthens that believe.

So in order to "fairly" find Kai guilty it has to be non-mods who find him so? Statements like "ruling class" or the "mods are out to get him" seem to distract from the real issue which is that Kai sent OOC messages that were very clearly unacceptable. Had I been in the realm at the time I certainly would have reported them- they are very clearly insulting and in my opinion quite offensive.

As as non-member of the supposed "ruling class" (lower class?) I have to say I'm really not seeing what your getting at here. Kai very clearly seems guilty and I would personally be surprised and suspect found play if most of the magistrates working on the case didn't immediately see what is staring at them right in the face. This isn't a court of law where we need lawyers for both sides; if someone is clearly in the wrong there is no requirement for a token magistrate to argue the impossible just because it "seems fair".

Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #49: September 09, 2013, 01:16:47 PM »
So why? One is putting the actual infraction into a context. But even doing so, it doesn't make it a non-infraction. i.e. my example of explaining why you stole my wallet - it might be interesting to a historian or a psychologist, but to the police it shouldn't matter.


The difference is that when it's a physical thing that's been stolen there's little or no doubt. In this case, whether or not the msgs were insulting is a subjective thing.


I remember a few weeks ago you posted somewhere (in response to a snarky posting from one of the Devs) that because you know each other you didn't feel insulted or offended by him. The implication being that context can make a difference when talking about apparent insults. So we all might have read the Dev's posting as an insult, but obviously the 2 of you didn't.

Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #50: September 09, 2013, 01:27:20 PM »
I hear these phrases repeatedly - "ruling class", "old boys club", and so on - allegations that there are organized groups within the game with special privileges.

But nobody ever publishes a member list. All this is is creating a false "us vs. them" feeling. It's not fair unless you can prove that such a group even exists.


Trust me, the Magistrates, Titans, moderators, even the dev team, are far from being one entity. There's quite a bit of differing opinions and in-fighting.


I used the term "ruling class", not as an epithet, but just to refer to the people who running things, and more specifically in this instance the moderators. "Old boys club" didn't come from me, it came from one of the Devs.

Anaris

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #51: September 09, 2013, 01:36:40 PM »
This isn't a court of law where we need lawyers for both sides; if someone is clearly in the wrong there is no requirement for a token magistrate to argue the impossible just because it "seems fair".

That's a very good way of putting it. Thanks, Meneldur :)
Timothy Collett

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Anaris

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #52: September 09, 2013, 01:37:48 PM »
I used the term "ruling class", not as an epithet, but just to refer to the people who running things, and more specifically in this instance the moderators. "Old boys club" didn't come from me, it came from one of the Devs.

And it came to us from other players, who actually believe that there is some kind of dev/mod/Magistrate conspiracy against them. You'd be surprised (and depressed) how many such people there are, actually. :-\
Timothy Collett

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #53: September 09, 2013, 01:51:04 PM »

It affects the fairness of the process. If you're going to have a procedure under the guise of ensuring fairness, you might as well try to make it actually fair. In this case, one side was being argued more than the other, and by some of the same people who are judging the case.

This is actually a problem common in American Media.

You may not appreciate this, but just because two arguments exist does not mean they are equally worthy of time. We aren't Fox News, and I'd rather we not try to be.
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Geronus

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #54: September 09, 2013, 02:26:30 PM »
The difference is that when it's a physical thing that's been stolen there's little or no doubt. In this case, whether or not the msgs were insulting is a subjective thing.

Do you think they weren't?

Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #55: September 09, 2013, 02:39:56 PM »
This isn't a court of law where we need lawyers for both sides; if someone is clearly in the wrong there is no requirement for a token magistrate to argue the impossible just because it "seems fair".

Not a court of law? Then why am I wearing a robe and powdered wig?  :P

Nobody said anything about lawyers. There are two sides to every story and listening to both sides being argued won't hurt anyone or cause the sky to come crashing down over BM. There could just be one person making these decisions behind the scenes, but presumably the purpose of the Magistrate forum is to ensure that both sides are heard.

Anaris

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #56: September 09, 2013, 02:52:24 PM »
There are two sides to every story and listening to both sides being argued won't hurt anyone or cause the sky to come crashing down over BM.

We heard it. His defense was basically, "He was just so bad, how could I not insult him?"

That's not a valid defense, so anything further was really pretty unnecessary.

Quote
There could just be one person making these decisions behind the scenes, but presumably the purpose of the Magistrate forum is to ensure that both sides are heard.

Sure. Heard. We heard him.

The purpose is not to make sure that both sides get equal time. As ^ban^ said, the idea that the two sides of every issue deserve equal time is an abhorrent fallacy propagated by far too much of Western media.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #57: September 09, 2013, 03:00:47 PM »
Do you think they weren't?

I've already said I don't they were insulting. The msg was directed at his realm mate's game play, not his inherent goodness as a person.

I understand that reasonable people can disagree on where to draw the line between 'insult' and 'non-insult', but if the consensus is (seems to be) that calling someone an !@#$%^& is acceptable, I don't see how you can reconcile getting upset because Kai said that another player is "bad at the game".

If he had said, for example, "Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries," those would fighting words:)

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #58: September 09, 2013, 03:11:33 PM »

Actually Penchant, I didn't truly believe the Moderators were out to get Kai until I read the thread, and now every posting I read from "the ruling class" strengthens that believe.


Addendum: Precious few postings have focused on the 2 OOC msgs, while most of you are focusing on how much of an !@#$%^& Kai is.

15 out of the 41 reported posts in the past month are about Kai. Those reports were made by 12 different people. That means that 36% of reported posts in the past month are regarding Kai, and it's far more than just the moderators who believe that his posts cross the line. When about 10% of those posting to the forums have reported someone, that someone has a problem, not the moderators. And frankly, if you think we are being unfair, you can email Tom about it. This forum is about Magistrate cases, not moderator actions.

As for the 2 OOC messages, I'm not sure what else needs to be said. It's none of the concern of the Moderators, and like I said previously, the Magistrates have a private forum to discuss their takes on the 2 OOC messages.

Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #59: September 09, 2013, 03:15:47 PM »
This is actually a problem common in American Media.

You may not appreciate this, but just because two arguments exist does not mean they are equally worthy of time. We aren't Fox News, and I'd rather we not try to be.

I've heard a lot people talk !@#$ about Fox News before, but you're the first person to accuse them of being too 2-sided.  :)

I'm not saying opposing arguments always have equal merit, just that when somebody's accused of wrong-doing, you should look at both sides of the story.