Author Topic: OOC comments insulting another player Case  (Read 28879 times)

egamma

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #60: September 09, 2013, 03:26:13 PM »
That's how the Magistrates work. In fact, they have a private board that not even I can see where they discuss the case amongst themselves. They are judge, jury, and executioners.

Point?
My point being, you don't know that both sides of the case aren't being argued. It could very well be the case that five of the magistrates are vigorously defending Kevin, but that they are going it in the private forum where they are supposed to do such arguing, rather than airing their judicial process in public.

I submitted the case, but I was not the one insulted. I saw my fellow player being insulted OOC, in violation of the Social Contract, and I submitted a Case. The Courthouse Rules clearly state:

So no, I should not be making the case. I submitted the evidence, and it's up to the Magistrates to decide if the evidence proves a violation of the Social Contract or IR's.

You don't have to be the insulted party, but if you're the one making the complaint, you should at least be able to justify your complaint, instead of just kicking it to the Magistrates to look after it for you.

Tom said, "Nobody does anything unless someone calls for help." Well, the insulted player did not call for help. You did, because you saw an opportunity to exploit a provision in the rules to bring a case against someone you dislike.
Look, I didn't even remember that Kai played the Endredgard family. You can believe that or not, but my reporting of his OOC messages had nothing to do with his forum posts. And when players are encouraged to make reports on behalf of other players, that's hardly "exploiting" the rules. If you see your neighbor being robbed, do you call the cops, or do you just say, "well, he can call the police himself if he wants to"?

Its our job as players to report posts; it's the Magistrates job to rule on them. My initial complaint submission provided the OOC messages and which provisions of the Social Contract I believed had been violated; there's nothing I care to add to the case, although when additional context was asked for I provided those posts.

And, as for Geronus and whether he insulted Kai or not:
Moderators aren't supposed to moderate the magistrates in the Courthouse board.

Point?

My point was that when someone asked by Geronus' posting with the word "!@#$%^&" wasn't moderated, I was letting you know that Moderators aren't supposed to moderate the Magistrates.

=====
It comes down to this. Nobody, including Kevin, has provided any evidence at all that I either falsified those OOC messages, or that those OOC messages weren't violations of the Social Contract. And that's all the case is about. Three simple questions: did Kevin write them, and if so, were they violations of the IRs or SC, and if they were, what is the punishment?

All this nonsense about who's out to get who is irrelevant. Those are the only three questions that the Magistrates have to consider.

Geronus

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #61: September 09, 2013, 03:32:22 PM »
I've heard a lot people talk !@#$ about Fox News before, but you're the first person to accuse them of being too 2-sided.  :)

I'm not saying opposing arguments always have equal merit, just that when somebody's accused of wrong-doing, you should look at both sides of the story.

We are. So far, the consensus is that there isn't much merit to Kai's argument. If you want to change our minds, you need to address the points that egamma just raised:

It comes down to this. Nobody, including Kevin, has provided any evidence at all that I either falsified those OOC messages, or that those OOC messages weren't violations of the Social Contract. And that's all the case is about. Three simple questions: did Kevin write them, and if so, were they violations of the IRs or SC, and if they were, what is the punishment?

All this nonsense about who's out to get who is irrelevant. Those are the only three questions that the Magistrates have to consider.

I couldn't have said it better myself. At this point, specifically the bit about whether the messages were violations of the Social Contract is the only part that matters to the Magistrates since Kai has already admitted to writing them.

Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #62: September 09, 2013, 03:40:05 PM »
We are. So far, the consensus is that there isn't much merit to Kai's argument. If you want to change our minds, you need to address the points that egamma just raised:
It comes down to this. Nobody, including Kevin, has provided any evidence at all that I either falsified those OOC messages, or that those OOC messages weren't violations of the Social Contract. And that's all the case is about. Three simple questions: did Kevin write them, and if so, were they violations of the IRs or SC, and if they were, what is the punishment?

All this nonsense about who's out to get who is irrelevant. Those are the only three questions that the Magistrates have to consider.
I couldn't have said it better myself. At this point, specifically the bit about whether the messages were violations of the Social Contract is the only part that matters to the Magistrates since Kai has already admitted to writing them.


Like I said:
I've already said I don't they were insulting. The msg was directed at his realm mate's game play, not his inherent goodness as a person.

I understand that reasonable people can disagree on where to draw the line between 'insult' and 'non-insult', but if the consensus is (seems to be) that calling someone an !@#$%^& is acceptable, I don't see how you can reconcile getting upset because Kai said that another player is "bad at the game".

If he had said, for example, "Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries," those would fighting words:)

Tom

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #63: September 09, 2013, 06:43:27 PM »
but if the consensus is (seems to be) that calling someone an !@#$%^& is acceptable,

No one ever said that. On the contrary, the rule proposes was do NOT be an !@#$%^&. Personally, I think there's a massive difference between a general statement like that and throwing that word at a specific person, but in the other topic the wording has already been changed simply because it might be misinterpreted, so the whole point is really moot.

Meneldur

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #64: September 09, 2013, 11:11:27 PM »
Not a court of law? Then why am I wearing a robe and powdered wig?  :P

Nobody said anything about lawyers. There are two sides to every story and listening to both sides being argued won't hurt anyone or cause the sky to come crashing down over BM. There could just be one person making these decisions behind the scenes, but presumably the purpose of the Magistrate forum is to ensure that both sides are heard.

But both sides were quite clearly heard; in fact Kai was unmuted specifically for that purpose, that he should be allowed to present his case. And that's exactly what he did- if you look at the thread in question Kai has several posts defending his point of view.

Sure, many Magistrates then disagreed with said posts but that doesn't mean he wasn't heard; in fact that is rather explicit proof that his argument was listened to and then rejected for being spurious. And no that's not unfair, that's exactly what the Magistrates are supposed to do; listen to both sides and then judge one of them to be spurious and the other to be valid.

So again I'm not fully understanding what your point is- what exactly did the Magistrates not do that you expected them to do?

Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #65: September 09, 2013, 11:28:17 PM »
No one ever said that. On the contrary, the rule proposes was do NOT be an !@#$%^&. Personally, I think there's a massive difference between a general statement like that and throwing that word at a specific person, but in the other topic the wording has already been changed simply because it might be misinterpreted, so the whole point is really moot.

I wasn't referring to that.

De-Legro

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #66: September 09, 2013, 11:40:42 PM »
Not a court of law? Then why am I wearing a robe and powdered wig?  :P

Nobody said anything about lawyers. There are two sides to every story and listening to both sides being argued won't hurt anyone or cause the sky to come crashing down over BM. There could just be one person making these decisions behind the scenes, but presumably the purpose of the Magistrate forum is to ensure that both sides are heard.

The main point of the Magistrates is, if I remember correctly, to provide more transparency into the decision making process then we had with the Titan system. To be honest the amount of time dedicated to discussions and "building" cases far exceeds what I recall being the intent. Most cases should be able to be summed up by 2-3 posts really. Part of the problem seems to be that to give the Magistrates enough time to make sure they have all had time to look at and consider the case (remember these are all volunteers) the verdict takes a while, and people post and argue over the facts until that verdict is posted.
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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #67: September 09, 2013, 11:45:27 PM »
The main point of the Magistrates is, if I remember correctly, to provide more transparency into the decision making process then we had with the Titan system. To be honest the amount of time dedicated to discussions and "building" cases far exceeds what I recall being the intent. Most cases should be able to be summed up by 2-3 posts really. Part of the problem seems to be that to give the Magistrates enough time to make sure they have all had time to look at and consider the case (remember these are all volunteers) the verdict takes a while, and people post and argue over the facts until that verdict is posted.

That is one reason I suggested the Titans/Magistrate reform should just be the original report and the magistrate verdict. Have those listed publicly (preferably in a link from the report page or otherwise integrated into the game, though the wiki would also be a fine spot). There can be a forum, with tight moderation, discussing cases, much like the Q&A forum now.

De-Legro

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #68: September 09, 2013, 11:48:10 PM »
That is one reason I suggested the Titans/Magistrate reform should just be the original report and the magistrate verdict. Have those listed publicly (preferably in a link from the report page or otherwise integrated into the game, though the wiki would also be a fine spot). There can be a forum, with tight moderation, discussing cases, much like the Q&A forum now.

Makes a lot of sense, it is rare that magistrates require lengthy discussion from community to actually make a decision. More often the result is bickering rather then illuminating debate.
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Eirikr

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #69: September 10, 2013, 01:38:41 AM »
I know Gustav, I'm getting used to being wrong.  ;)  If he's abused people in the forum in the past, then punish him for those abuses. But as Tom said, this case is about the 2 OOC msgs, not whatever happened in the past. If he's found "guilty", then by all meanslook at his record for determining his punishment, but not for deciding his guilt or innocence.

I know I'm late to the party, but... using your own emphasis, he managed to get off of those [forum] abuses by being unmuted via the Magistrates case. I know we've traveled quite far from my original point, but the way I see it, the "legal" process has been disrupted in his favor, not otherwise.

Another point of contention you hold is that Kai wrote his negative (currently an undisputed adjective) OOC messages about the other players' gameplay... Can that not be an insult? If I offer to tie your shoes for you, is it not an insult to your intelligence? It should say something that it was quite difficult for me not to use the word "insult" to describe those messages; I had to actively edit myself.

What makes Kai's messages (and thereby, defenses) harder to swallow is that there is no way to "win" BattleMaster. Essentially, by definition, you cannot be "good" nor "bad" at it. I'm even quite certain that's one of the major selling points of the game. Yes, you can win or lose battles or wars, but there are many IG, IC, non-insulting ways to remove someone who seems to be hurting your realm.

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #70: September 10, 2013, 02:42:41 AM »
So again I'm not fully understanding what your point is- what exactly did the Magistrates not do that you expected them to do?


I think this tangent has run its course. No point really. At some juncture I casually mentioned that this case doesn't really concern me, but since Kai asked for someone who's not a Moderator to chime in, and since at that point it was something like 5 against 1, I decided to give my opinion. 50 posts later, now it's 10 against 1, and I'm the 1. Chalk it up to a lesson in staying on topic.

Buffalkill

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #71: September 10, 2013, 03:38:12 AM »
Another point of contention you hold is that Kai wrote his negative (currently an undisputed adjective) OOC messages about the other players' gameplay... Can that not be an insult?


That argument arose when I pointed out that 2 forum users insulted Kai by calling him an '!@#$%^&' on this thread, and a few people were falling all over themselves to excuse it by saying that they weren't really calling him an !@#$%^&, it was just shorthand for saying that he was behaving like an !@#$%^&. Whatever. And then also I had argued that BattleMaster is a team sport, and as a member of a team you ought to be able to criticize your teammates. Kai didn't say, for example, "You're too stupid to play BM" or "You suck because you're from country X," or anything like that. He was expressing his frustration with his teammate.


What makes Kai's messages (and thereby, defenses) harder to swallow is that there is no way to "win" BattleMaster. Essentially, by definition, you cannot be "good" nor "bad" at it. I'm even quite certain that's one of the major selling points of the game. Yes, you can win or lose battles or wars, but there are many IG, IC, non-insulting ways to remove someone who seems to be hurting your realm.


I don't think it's relevant. There's no end to BM as there is in, say, a football game. So what? We're not talking about whether or not his critique was well-founded, as all of the "prosecutors" have strenuously pointed out to me, no matter whether I needed to hear it or not. It doesn't matter if we agree or disagree with his critique, he should be allowed say it, and his realm mates are allowed to refute it if they disagree.

De-Legro

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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #72: September 10, 2013, 04:04:52 AM »

That argument arose when I pointed out that 2 forum users insulted Kai by calling him an '!@#$%^&' on this thread, and a few people were falling all over themselves to excuse it by saying that they weren't really calling him an !@#$%^&, it was just shorthand for saying that he was behaving like an !@#$%^&. Whatever. And then also I had argued that BattleMaster is a team sport, and as a member of a team you ought to be able to criticize your teammates. Kai didn't say, for example, "You're too stupid to play BM" or "You suck because you're from country X," or anything like that. He was expressing his frustration with his teammate.



I don't think it's relevant. There's no end to BM as there is in, say, a football game. So what? We're not talking about whether or not his critique was well-founded, as all of the "prosecutors" have strenuously pointed out to me, no matter whether I needed to hear it or not. It doesn't matter if we agree or disagree with his critique, he should be allowed say it, and his realm mates are allowed to refute it if they disagree.

A critique would be something along the lines of, you made a mistake in this circumstance because of factors x y z. If I told someone on my football team they were a bad player, apart from being "unhelpful" criticism I would most likely just be told to stop being a jerk. If criticism is insulting or offensive then they should not be able to say it, and should probably think hard about how to improve their communications so that the criticism is received in way that will lead to positive outcomes.
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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #73: September 10, 2013, 04:09:30 AM »
If I told someone on my football team they were a bad player, apart from being "unhelpful" criticism I would most likely just be told to stop being a jerk.
...at which point you would of course accuse them of throwing a temper tantrum. Because that's such a valid critique of their gameplay...
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Re: OOC comments insulting another player Case
« Reply #74: September 10, 2013, 04:43:04 AM »

A critique would be something along the lines of, you made a mistake in this circumstance because of factors x y z. If I told someone on my football team they were a bad player, apart from being "unhelpful" criticism I would most likely just be told to stop being a jerk. If criticism is insulting or offensive then they should not be able to say it, and should probably think hard about how to improve their communications so that the criticism is received in way that will lead to positive outcomes.

...at which point you would of course accuse them of throwing a temper tantrum. Because that's such a valid critique of their gameplay...

A tantrum? Yes, that's what this appears to be. Without being in that realm, I can't say whether it was helpful or not, nor does it matter. It appears there was a power struggle going on, but again that's really for the players in that realm to worry about, not me. If the other player was offended, he's kept it to himself. If he was a newbie who subsequently quit the game as a result, I might be more inclined to throw the book at Kai. Since the player is a Royal Marshall, I doubt he cried himself to sleep that night. I know that the usual suspects would probably jump in here and say that the player's rank, and whether or not he cried, is irrelevant, so I just saved you the trouble.