Author Topic: What prevents game to be competitive... i.e. to be a game.  (Read 28378 times)

Stue (DC)

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
Hello,

I will share some thoughts here about what I think in current setup of game mechanics is preventing game to be interesting from point of view where lack of competitive opportunities deprive us of fun.

Do not expect much more response from me, partly for not having time to hang on forums, partly for not being able to enjoy in offenses and rude talk from some forum member who express their disagreement that way. :-[

So, here are some item related to current game mechanics state.

1. Since the time religions are castrated being deprived of ability to collect gold and with situation where religious takeover became only hypothetical possibility, all what I saw with religions is that they split in two types of religions: theocratic religions or religions tightly tied with some realm's hierarchies and independent religions. First group, who was more powerful before as well, now became overly too powerful, and other group cannot be significant in any way, anymore. so, now, on continents, we can see either totally dominant or completely weak religions. there will never be clashes or possibilities to change something in-game.

2. Though changes to tax system made some great step toward reinstating logical game hierarchy, where rulers are stronger than dukes, there is still untouchable and too comfortable position of dukes which make them more fun-killers than driving force to fun. Dukes cannot be replaced neither in rebellion nor via infiltrators attack, so they are here forever, they get used to such position and fall asleep. Not all of them, of course, but large majority.

3. The fact that game still have concept of honor and prestige and that rulers do not "earn" any penalty for large betrayal directly affects boredom in diplomacy all the time. While judges can lose incredible amount of honor by torturing lowly infiltrator, ruler can break long-term alliance and attack former ally within one -day. So we permanently have sudden change of side "all-against-one" gangbang which more looks as a lottery than as a consequence of some long-term diplomatic efforts. Alliances are shapeless and meaningless as game mechanics allow them to be such. The other example of it is possibility that realm can be allied to both opposing sides in war. If game mechanics does not enforce some logic at least on basic level, we can expect that grotesque situations will take place, and if such situations are not aligned with any in-game flavor, they are not funny at all.

4. Possibility to freely adjust realm government options made even realm type shapeless and tasteless. We have monarchies where all positions are re-elected, and monarchies where ruler appoint judge, which should be major characteristic of tyranny. Giving too many too easy options rendered government type insignificant.

5. Too many too long elections referendum - that is one of real sources of boredom and annoyer. The modern concept where elections are ideal just way of resolving political issues, while being questionable in modern world is really, really not aligned with medieval world. There should be as little elections as possible, power should be taken by force, plotting, rebellion, assassinating, not by "fair" elections, that are simply tasteless.

6. Weakening realm government positions rendered them non-attractive as many other things in game.
- I could understand why generals were deprived of power in times when some generals were micromanaging each and every troop in the realm, but I feel now it could be time that some power or at least some more options should be given back to them. For instance, if generals do not need to know conditions of each and every troop as that is marshal's duty, shouldn't they at least have overall troop condition of the army, to know how marshals are doing? Should they have opportunity to read all internal army orders and standing orders, or even to change marshals standing orders for each army, where something like that would be known to nobles? Should they know how recruitment centers are filled even when they are not in capital? If not giving them significantly more power, should at least some more buttons be given to them, to make that positions more attractive, as they are seemingly not so attractive currently. General is simply too responsible for realm affairs, while having too little power.
- It is even more the case for bankers. If bankers would be given more power, I humbly believe the whole concept of economics could more affect politics, intercept with it, creating much more fun. For instance - just an idea - should banker be given exclusive right for all foreign trade? Lords who does not want banker messing with their supplies would be able to trade only with internal regions, while all foreign prices would be set by bankers. Dukes who does not like that should simply secede! Or if they prefer current realm's shield, they should negotiate with bankers.
- Rulers also need, really need, more powerful  exiles. That could give much more interesting clashes with government members, especially with judges, and put more logic in ruler's position. Should exiles be so penalized? Maybe some initial prestige loss would suffice? I am pretty certain exiles, especially many exiles, would be seen as unjust and tyrannical by most of nobility even without game mechanics to enforce it. The opinions comes from simple long-time observation - exiles are penalizing rulers so much that they are rarely used or not at all, while they could create lot of in-game fun. Why rulers have to beg judges to punish some noble day by day? Or why rulers should not get rid of some government member? In times where they are in clash, ruler should have some ultimate button that proves his/her position of ultimate power.
- Judges.. I don't think they need more buttons, but they certainly need more direction, very clear and authoritative direction about game policies. It is so common that judge fears to send any kind of fine against any noble as they simply fear or Titans so much that they would rather never take risk.

Geronus

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2332
  • Dum dee dum dee dum
    • View Profile
Your assertions might be more persuasive if you gave some examples. You also don't offer very many suggestions about how to fix the problems you have identified.

1. You are generalizing too much here I think, and are definitely in need of examples. RTOs are far from impossible. As for the rest of your argument about state-backed religions versus religions that don't have state support, shouldn't a religion that enjoys the backing of one or more realms (with all of the influence and assets that realms can provide in service of said religion) have an advantage over one that doesn't? I mean that just seems logical. If not, what specific changes would you propose to alter that state of affairs?

2. Replacing Dukes isn't easy, but it is certainly possible. Having an infiltrator stab him and then banning him before he gets better is the easiest way by far. Again, what specific changes would propose to address this issue?

3. There can certainly be costs for betrayal and such not, it's just that they are not measurable by game enforced statistics like honor and prestige. If the ruler of realm A backstabs realm B, he risks damage to his reputation and trustworthiness as it is perceived by other characters, as well as the reputation of his realm. This can have real costs in the form of fewer allies and greater diplomatic vulnerability. These political impacts cannot be measured but they are quite real. Experienced or natural rulers can do such things and get away with it at times, but that is due to their skill, not because their actions are inherently free of consequences.

Your hypothetical about one realm being allied to two realms at war with each other is actually impossible I believe. When the two realms try to go to war they will not be able to unless one of them first lowers their alliance with the realm that's allied to both of them.

4. Personally I prefer the current system where governments are flexible to an extent. It allows for greater customization to fit with your realm's culture.

5. Again, I enjoy elections. For one thing, they provide for a way to generate turnover in positions of power, which is good for the game from an OOC perspective. For another, they offer opportunities to generate debate and fight political battles, which are also good for the game. Elections will never replace plotting, intrigue and rebellions either. I've been in Republics that experienced secessions and rebellions.

6. I don't really have a strong opinion about government positions. I think they're OK the way they are, even if General and Banker are more or less ceremonial in terms of the game options they permit. They're really just titles that give you authority for the most part, though you do get a bit of extra information and a couple of seldom-used buttons.

Lacedaemon

  • Knight
  • **
  • Posts: 37
  • Amyclas, Belarus, Aigre Valens
    • View Profile
I think nobles need to be more killable. The number one cause of a noble "leaving" is still pausing or inactivity rather than killed in action. Higher mortality would surely lead to more volatile politics and !fun!. Perhaps allowing executions without banning might help.

Zakilevo

  • Guest
too many inactive old character sitting on positions where they shouldn't. Let the killing begin!

Jaden

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 256
  • Jameel, Jabari, Jadyn, Jerold
    • View Profile
Allowing executions without bans is a bit over the top, you will have retaliation executions, and after all is done then there will be only 17 year olds left  :P.
I just want voluntary mortality to be implemented, then I will activate it on all my characters and taunt those who haven't  8)
PM me for the Dota 2 guild.
"Darka would like to thank CE and co for their generous offerings, the Holy Volcano will be filled up for days with all these offerings!"-Jaret Jaron's last words

Stue (DC)

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
Your assertions might be more persuasive if you gave some examples. You also don't offer very many suggestions about how to fix the problems you have identified.

1. You are generalizing too much here I think, and are definitely in need of examples. RTOs are far from impossible. As for the rest of your argument about state-backed religions versus religions that don't have state support, shouldn't a religion that enjoys the backing of one or more realms (with all of the influence and assets that realms can provide in service of said religion) have an advantage over one that doesn't? I mean that just seems logical. If not, what specific changes would you propose to alter that state of affairs?

in current circumstances i really do not see rto's as any practicable solutions - rogue regions cannot be rto'd, long term stuck which is reported to bugtracker many times lead to situation where most of regions cannot reach 80% followers with any effort, and only regions on province control level or lower can be rto'd, which was the same as before, but it was much harder before to maintain  high control without courtier work.
which now leads me to another issue - too easy region control rendered courtiers mostly useless as well-...
in reality i simply do not see rto's as practical reality of any political significance.
that together with multple cost burden on temples left religions bound to mundane support. i know that it was intentional, but here i dare to state my opinion - religions weakening only reduced number of power players in game, which crippled many political complexities and clashes and reduced number of ways on how to play games at all - which really reduces fun.

2. Replacing Dukes isn't easy, but it is certainly possible. Having an infiltrator stab him and then banning him before he gets better is the easiest way by far. Again, what specific changes would propose to address this issue?

is it not hypothetical? ruler has to reveal that he works together with lowly infiltrator to get rid of duke and they together have to use all in-game buttons to try to accomplish it. that is so stretched that i fail to see its practicality.
what would i propose - more edge to infiltrators, more power to rulers exile option and let power clashes begin!

3. There can certainly be costs for betrayal and such not, it's just that they are not measurable by game enforced statistics like honor and prestige. If the ruler of realm A backstabs realm B, he risks damage to his reputation and trustworthiness as it is perceived by other characters, as well as the reputation of his realm. This can have real costs in the form of fewer allies and greater diplomatic vulnerability. These political impacts cannot be measured but they are quite real. Experienced or natural rulers can do such things and get away with it at times, but that is due to their skill, not because their actions are inherently free of consequences.

again, i see it completely different in real game practice. rulers who make last-minute betrayal and join gang-bang are very often the most successful in a game and make example to others how to deal with diplomacy. that is in enormous contradictory with proclaimed principles of medieval world. i am not saying that betrayals should be completely discouraged, but rulers should be forced by game mechanics to do lowly things in dark, not publicly. to conclude, there is no ANY penalty for major public betrayal, and in all game aspects that brings only benefits to those who commit it.

Your hypothetical about one realm being allied to two realms at war with each other is actually impossible I believe. When the two realms try to go to war they will not be able to unless one of them first lowers their alliance with the realm that's allied to both of them.

you are right, i was wrong on this. yet much can be done to streamline some diplomacy logic, like disallowing to go to war with former ally within one month time, disallowing blitzkrieg wars of realms in peace, time lag for each change in diplomatic stance, so more strategic planning and formal diplomacy could take place.

4. Personally I prefer the current system where governments are flexible to an extent. It allows for greater customization to fit with your realm's culture.

5. Again, I enjoy elections. For one thing, they provide for a way to generate turnover in positions of power, which is good for the game from an OOC perspective. For another, they offer opportunities to generate debate and fight political battles, which are also good for the game. Elections will never replace plotting, intrigue and rebellions either. I've been in Republics that experienced secessions and rebellions.

it would not be a problem if governments would be flexible to some extent, the problem is that they are completely flexible. some threshold should exist which differs realm governments. ruler present realm hierarchy and radical changes should involve at least ruler's stepping down if not rebellion. allowing all that to be modifiable via buttons simple releives many possible in-game clashed that could naturally develop

as for the election, of course, you have your view. what i see in game that there is almost absolute indolence for any re-elections. again that relieves so many tensions which should be resolved by clashes; again it is game mechanics that disallows such clashes.

6. I don't really have a strong opinion about government positions. I think they're OK the way they are, even if General and Banker are more or less ceremonial in terms of the game options they permit. They're really just titles that give you authority for the most part, though you do get a bit of extra information and a couple of seldom-used buttons.

less authority = less power player = less clashes = less competition = much less fun

we simply have too few really powerful positions and minor number of ways to challenge them.

^ban^

  • BM Dev Team
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1056
  • Le Genie
    • View Profile
Anyone that believes Banker is a ceremonial title has no idea how to be a Banker.
Born in Day they knew the Light; Rulers, prophets, servants, and warriors.
Life in Night that they walk; Gods, heretics, thieves, and murderers.
The Stefanovics live.

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
Anyone that believes Banker is a ceremonial title has no idea how to be a Banker.
+1

It is tied up with the mindset that can't accept the changes to the Banker. The banker has MASSIVE responsibilities, even if they have limited power to achieve it.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Galvez

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 506
  • Veni, Vidi, Vici
    • View Profile
    • Facebook
1. Since the time religions are castrated being deprived of ability to collect gold and with situation where religious takeover became only hypothetical possibility, all what I saw with religions is that they split in two types of religions: theocratic religions or religions tightly tied with some realm's hierarchies and independent religions. First group, who was more powerful before as well, now became overly too powerful, and other group cannot be significant in any way, anymore. so, now, on continents, we can see either totally dominant or completely weak religions. there will never be clashes or possibilities to change something in-game.

I believe that religions in general should be more powerful. Their power should matter. Currently the consequences of their actions are punished too harshly while it achieves too little. This regards the option to influence followers. Relgions are the closest connection to the peasants. Their propaganda should matter. If a Cardinal is in a region stirring the people up, causing civil unrest, it should really make a difference. Currently is is almost never used because it is an easy way to lose many followers. That shouldn't be the case. While I understand that you lose some followers who really disagree with you, the religion usually provides someone's principles, values and morals, and the majority blindly follows the Church's path.
"Men willingly believe what they wish." - Julius Caesar

Stue (DC)

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
I believe that religions in general should be more powerful. ...

... and that could be said for many other things as well.

my infil is just about to finish his career, and the same applies as mentioned - whatever is achieved is minor, while punishments are utterly harsh.

why bother playing at all in such circumstances? it's more masochism than any chance of joy. only thing that ties me to priest role is long-term dedication to game in overall, while having no fun at all. it's about current setup of game mechanics that discourages many players i believe.

Stue (DC)

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
+1

It is tied up with the mindset that can't accept the changes to the Banker. The banker has MASSIVE responsibilities, even if they have limited power to achieve it.

i think i mentioned somewhere up there, that collision between responsibilities and power is something which deprives us of so much fun. general is also a position with massive responsibilities and little authority.

so i am asking again - where is the fun? why anyone in game which is designed for lightweight play would bother with massive responsibilities and little power? is it expected that only players prone to self-sacrifice would drive fun here?  ???  WHY anybody would bother with massive responsibilities and lilliputian authorities?

Zakilevo

  • Guest
i think i mentioned somewhere up there, that collision between responsibilities and power is something which deprives us of so much fun. general is also a position with massive responsibilities and little authority.

so i am asking again - where is the fun? why anyone in game which is designed for lightweight play would bother with massive responsibilities and little power? is it expected that only players prone to self-sacrifice would drive fun here?  ???  WHY anybody would bother with massive responsibilities and lilliputian authorities?

I think this is why not many people want to become a general. They get burned out after a war or two.

jaune

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 725
  • Suck my socks!
    • View Profile
I wrote long and bitter message... but thought i dont send it.

I'm just saying, not happy how the game is now... dunno what is wrong, dont have any good suggestions... i just know, it is not fun anymore... maybby it is just me what is wrong.

But what i was about to comment, was that comment about generals lasting 1-2 wars, most generals and rulers at Atamara have not lasted this one war :P

KK and Ottar are the only rulers who were rulers when this war started :P

-jaune
~Violence is always an option!~

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
I think this is why not many people want to become a general. They get burned out after a war or two.
This is due to a change in philosophy by the players. Perhaps this was caused by a change in philosophy in council positions, and the orders experiment that went through a few iterations. (The thing about who is allowed to send orders, limitations on who could use red paper, etc. ...) I think that all this has resulted in the players current philosophy that only one or two people are allowed to ever send orders. Three, tops. (General, Marshal, and Vice Marshal) This is a 100% guaranteed recipe for player burnout, and causing people to not want any of these three positions. Only the hyper-active people volunteer. I've been asked many times, in several realms, to be a general or marshal. I have to refuse every time, because I just can't dedicate the time, especially in the turn change hours, to do it.

It used to be that in almost every realm, there was a war council, or a military council that cooperated to send orders. Anyone in that council was authorized to send orders. The generals usually kept a list in their bulletin that provided the chain of command. In Perdan back in '06/'07 time frame, our military council had ~20 players in it, spread across time zones to cover both turn changes. Not all of them could make every turn change, and some couldn't do turn changes at all. But they all contributed to strategy. And anyone in there who was on at turn change could send orders. The result of this was that Perdan could rapidly respond, and orders were always sent within 1 hour of turn change, every turn. Other realms were the same way. And this is how the massive war machines that marched hundreds of nobles across islands was handled.

This camaraderie and cooperation of players to accomplish goals like this is something that is missing now. Back then, if one person couldn't handle something, it was no big deal. There were other players that could do it. People probably wouldn't even remark on the fact that one particular person wasn't helping with orders for any one turn. The way it is now, if your marshal or general isn't there for a turn change, no one gets orders. That's way too much pressure for a fun/casual game, for most people.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

jaune

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 725
  • Suck my socks!
    • View Profile
Oh boy, it almost brings tear to my eye :)

Those times were when BM really was team game. At Darka we used irc quite a lot back then... qiuck analyzis with irc people and military council... and orders out quickly. Some of us sit out hours at irc chatting/gaming... Good times :P

But yeah, war needs something. We need somehow make multiple armies > big mass of army.

At Atamara, there is 50kCS army roaming around, there is nobody who could stop that... they come and smash until they run out of gold, then they get back home... refit and get back. I admit, this is more Atamaran politics and diplomatic problem, but it is also game problem. We need more strategic options and variety.

Limit army to consist only 10 players? Only 10 units can use roads at turn to certain direction? I think we need to get riddoff those big blob armies.

Anyway, prolly got carried away from the the topic :P
~Violence is always an option!~