Author Topic: What prevents game to be competitive... i.e. to be a game.  (Read 28377 times)

Anaris

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In at least a couple cases, I have some disagreement with your summation. You even acknowledge that there were, in fact, code changes that "resulted in the undesired state of affairs":

Yeah; I thought about adding something along the lines of "and a few others." Not sure why I ended up not doing so ;)

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There are a few other changes that altered the philosophy of the game. The entire Orders experiment was a big one. That change, though rolled back, was a major shift on the way in which players approached the military command element of the game. It almost single-handedly placed the burden of command on Marshals alone, mostly cut generals out of the loop, and overloaded those few players who actively tried to get into the philosophy that was being pushed on them. Instead of cooperative committees, you placed the entire burden of command on one single person: The Marshal of the army. We then reinforced that with things such as taking away red paper, threatening lightening bolts on people that didn't follow the game-enforced command structure, and even completely removing the ability of the general to even see the status of any army of which he was not the marshal/vice-marshal.

Yep. That's been a big contributor to the burnout problem, no question. I guess I wasn't thinking along those lines because I was trying to look at actual feature changes that we stuck with, stuff that we could still remove now and (hypothetically) improve things by their absence. But yeah, that really caused some problems.

I'm not exactly sure how to fix it, but one idea that's come to me is a feature we've talked about a number of times, and Tom has even approved in principle: game-recognized Councils, such as a Military Council.

And what if we were to give the Military Council—and anyone on it—the ability to send orders to any army in the realm?

It seems to me that would help to give a strong signal to the players that not only is it OK for someone other than the Marshal to be giving orders, it is actively encouraged. Particularly with some of the changes we're already considering that would the Marshal's ability to order specialized formations more important, I think declaring that the Marshal's focus should be tactics, rather than always giving out the daily orders, might be the way to go forward with this.

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We have also systematically diffused the concentration of power in the interest of trying to spread it out among more players. We even went so far as to cram it down the throats of people that didn't want it. Food, anyone? We've only recently turned that back around, at least a bit, to let the realms centralize food control again. We've taken away traditional powers, and either spread them out, or outright gotten rid of them. How about generals and rulers that can't sponsor armies? (Unless they happen to be region lords. Or are already an army sponsor, in which case they can sponsor as many more as they want.) Generals that can't see army status. Vice Marshals that couldn't set formations. Bankers that can't set tax rates. Judges that couldn't ban people because of "good marks". Judges that are afraid of punishing people because they think that they'll get bolted for damn near anything they do.

Oddly enough, this is going generally in exactly the opposite direction from the previous change.

The army sponsorship thing I have always seen as a bug. First of all, either Rulers and Generals should be able to sponsor armies or not, period, end of story. The fact that some are "grandfathered" in should mean that all should simply have the option available to them. I never really understood Tom's logic in trying to take that away from them.

I agree that it's best for Vice-Marshals to be able to set formations. (Though I don't recall offhand if they can at this point or not...)

Given the structure of the current system, I honestly can't see what taxes the Banker should be able to set. Unless you want to argue that, though the Ruler is the titular head of the feudal hierarchy, the Banker is his "hands" in matters of money, and thus should be able to set the crown's tax rate on Duchies.

Good and bad marks were an interesting system, but I think they went too far.

Judges being afraid to ban people for fear of bolts or violating IR is, frankly, largely an issue among player culture, not something that the devs or our policies are directly responsible for. There is a subset of our players who actively scaremonger about the big bad Titans/GMs, using them as a boogeyman to show how oppressed and persecuted they or their group is. I don't think there's been an actual lightning bolting—let alone a storm, which is when it actually kills the character—for at least five years now. (And that's a pretty arbitrary number, because the last one I can actually remember was when the ruler of Luz de Bia was bolted—wounded for one turn, immediately re-elected due to the insta-elections bug—for moving the capital of their realm to Grehk during their war against Riombara back in...I want to say 2006? ...Yep, the Wiki says 2006.)

Honestly, I don't think there's a way to completely fix this particular problem, as long as there are people in the game who believe it is to their advantage to continue to use the idea of lightning bolts as a boogeyman, and people who have bought into the idea and continue to perpetuate it simply because they don't know any better. After all, this is the kind of thing that if we say we're not going to bolt you for any arbitrary issue, that clearly means we're just waiting, hoping for some infraction that crosses our invisible line just a hair so we can bolt them. (To the people who believe the "GMs" are all out to get them, that is.)

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It's not always just one specific feature or change that causes things to radically alter the way that players perceive or play the game. Sometimes it's a whole series of changes that, in aggregate, add up to a significant change.

Certainly. But if we're thoughtful and careful, I believe we can use this effect to our—and the game's—advantage, rather than its detriment.
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Indirik

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Yep. That's been a big contributor to the burnout problem, no question. I guess I wasn't thinking along those lines because I was trying to look at actual feature changes that we stuck with, stuff that we could still remove now and (hypothetically) improve things by their absence. But yeah, that really caused some problems.
We can't just consider code, though. We also have to consider the effects of policies, whether official or unofficial. Let's face it, Tom coming on to the forums and saying something off-hand can have far-reaching effects when it is quoted IG by someone trying to shore up their arguments. Things like that spread quickly, and often out of context. When things like that happen, perhaps we need to take a look at making some kind of official position statement, or something to set the record straight.


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I'm not exactly sure how to fix it, but one idea that's come to me is a feature we've talked about a number of times, and Tom has even approved in principle: game-recognized Councils, such as a Military Council.

And what if we were to give the Military Council—and anyone on it—the ability to send orders to any army in the realm?

It seems to me that would help to give a strong signal to the players that not only is it OK for someone other than the Marshal to be giving orders, it is actively encouraged. Particularly with some of the changes we're already considering that would the Marshal's ability to order specialized formations more important, I think declaring that the Marshal's focus should be tactics, rather than always giving out the daily orders, might be the way to go forward with this.

I have liked the idea of game-created councils ever since they were first discussed. Most realms manually make them anyway. Why not have some automated support for it?

Some form of game-supported military council, with orders capabilities as you have mentioned, may help bring back the cooperative environment.

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I agree that it's best for Vice-Marshals to be able to set formations. (Though I don't recall offhand if they can at this point or not...)
I believe that the Marshal and Vice Marshal both have access to the same formation setting. I.e. it's a common setting that both can set, and controls the formation of both.

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Given the structure of the current system, I honestly can't see what taxes the Banker should be able to set. Unless you want to argue that, though the Ruler is the titular head of the feudal hierarchy, the Banker is his "hands" in matters of money, and thus should be able to set the crown's tax rate on Duchies.
Yes, there is not much to set for taxes anymore. But having the banker control some tax-related things sounds good. Right now the banker isn't really a "banker". He's a glorified food wholesaler/distributor. (And while he always has been that to a greater or lesser degree depending on the realm, he used to at least have some control of financial aspects of the realm.)

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Judges being afraid to ban people for fear of bolts or violating IR is, frankly, largely an issue among player culture, not something that the devs or our policies are directly responsible for.
That's partially correct. Yes, it is a player culture thing. We may not be directly responsible for it, but various actions and statements over the past have caused quite a bit of fear on the part of the players. Yes, some of it is no doubt sensationalized and some intentional (or even unintentional) fear mongering.

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There is a subset of our players who actively scaremonger about the big bad Titans/GMs, using them as a boogeyman to show how oppressed and persecuted they or their group is. I don't think there's been an actual lightning bolting—let alone a storm, which is when it actually kills the character—for at least five years now.
I think the last lightning storm I remember was on EC back during the Orders experiments. One of the dukes of Caligus was fried when he sent a Request and said "This is an Order" in it. So, maybe 2007?

As for regular bolts, a couple people on Dwilight got a bit crisped due to sending too many OOC messages in their realm. Chenier may have been one of them? I can't remember, but that would have been 2008 or so.

I can't remember anything more recent.

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Honestly, I don't think there's a way to completely fix this particular problem, as long as there are people in the game who believe it is to their advantage to continue to use the idea of lightning bolts as a boogeyman, and people who have bought into the idea and continue to perpetuate it simply because they don't know any better. After all, this is the kind of thing that if we say we're not going to bolt you for any arbitrary issue, that clearly means we're just waiting, hoping for some infraction that crosses our invisible line just a hair so we can bolt them. (To the people who believe the "GMs" are all out to get them, that is.)
The Magistrates system was an attempt at transparency to help resolve this kind of thing. Tom has always been against the publishing of the Titans verdicts, so I really can't think of anything off-hand. The people who know the real story need to make sure that whenever they see this fear-mongering happening IG, that they set the record straight.

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Certainly. But if we're thoughtful and careful, I believe we can use this effect to our—and the game's—advantage, rather than its detriment.
We certainly can.
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Perth

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KK and Ottar are the only rulers who were rulers when this war started :P

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What about Captain/Aldarion? Has he left now?
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Ah, yes he is ruler again, he was away from throne a while.

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Stue (DC)

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adding some small game mechanics to military council could indeed make it more attractive to some extent, but the main point i tried to express in this thread is that there is lack in positions of power which would be attractive enough to be fought for and which would enable power clashes.

too many positions are reduced to ceremonial role, and few which have power do not have any incentive to make risks. in such situation interest of players is lost, there is simply too little to be played about. it is boring and people are leaving day by day. i can recall 5-6 long-term players that left within last 3-4 weeks. should it not be sign that some more energetic measures should be taken soon enough?


Penchant

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adding some small game mechanics to military council could indeed make it more attractive to some extent, but the main point i tried to express in this thread is that there is lack in positions of power which would be attractive enough to be fought for and which would enable power clashes.
It was suggested due to the burnout of military leaders/orders issue, not lack of power.

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too many positions are reduced to ceremonial role, and few which have power do not have any incentive to make risks.
None are ceremonial, but some have less direct power. I still partially blame the bankers lack of authority in many realms due to the initials messages which IMO was giving off the vibe that characters should not let the banker have authority over them. 
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in such situation interest of players is lost, there is simply too little to be played about. it is boring and people are leaving day by day. i can recall 5-6 long-term players that left within last 3-4 weeks. should it not be sign that some more energetic measures should be taken soon enough?
While BM is definitely suffering issues, 5-6 people leaving long-term or otherwise is not the indicator of that and rash decisions based on the guesses of someone does not seem like the way to fix it.
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Stue (DC)

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It was suggested due to the burnout of military leaders/orders issue, not lack of power.

if it is so, in my view, it missed the point. the only usefulness of it what i see in incentive in giving players motivation to accomplish something and that happens if, for instance, military council has some more weight.

None are ceremonial, but some have less direct power. I still partially blame the bankers lack of authority in many realms due to the initials messages which IMO was giving off the vibe that characters should not let the banker have authority over them. 

i feel general's and banker's positions purely ceremonial, while judges are blocked by fear. whoever cannot move things forward in any way is irrelevant in respect of potential for creating conflict.

While BM is definitely suffering issues, 5-6 people leaving long-term or otherwise is not the indicator of that and rash decisions based on the guesses of someone does not seem like the way to fix it.

i used only example using current short-term memory, as i would not find ability to make year-long statistics. only feeling could be transmitted how players are leaving at increased rate over the whole year. estates are emptied, it is even hard to find nobles for lordships in many realms (while i believe sinking some continent will not help at all).

Ketchum

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Try think more creatively. This following below come from my experience.

General
During rebellion planning, General is the key to your success. General can disband militia and ensure your rebellion force does not encounter stronger force in the capital, which in turn ensure your rebellion success in as few turns as possible. Best example, is when Colonies realm Oritolon experienced a lot of rebellions. No wonder one of the rebellion tips is having General on your side, rather than against you   ;D

Banker
Becoming a banker and arranging the food trade by contacting other realm Bankers. Otherwise who Banker is foolish enough to trust an unknown, new Trader who has no reputation. Of course Bankers do not look like doing much either. Other than Black Market, I do not recall it is of much use. So I concur it is ceremonial as Stue points out  :-\

Judge
Have you ever have a fast finger Judge who quickly banned all of you before you even able to start a rebellion? I did experience it, during the many rebellions from the same realm Oritolon. I took the fast finger Judge ban as one token of my loyalty to my realm. You can refer my Family Wikipedia for the source ;)

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Ketchum_Family

I do understand in recent times, Judges come into much focus as they are blocked by fear, past cases and IR. Instead of focus on the player inactivity, why not the Judge focus on the character disobeying order instead? This has potential to create conflict and generate enough interest for the game. The characters involved will have much disdain for each other. Best example is when SaDiablo as Lukon Judge on Colonies island, he executed Lady Silks Noble, causing much friction between both their character family. Of course the high gold bounty put on Lucivar SaDiablo's head can only come from who else but Noble family member 8)
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Stue (DC)

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General
During rebellion planning, General is the key to your success. General can disband militia and ensure your rebellion force does not encounter stronger force in the capital, which in turn ensure your rebellion success in as few turns as possible. Best example, is when Colonies realm Oritolon experienced a lot of rebellions. No wonder one of the rebellion tips is having General on your side, rather than against you   ;D

this is so common that it's explain in basic wiki guide if i remember well. that i general one and only power and cannot be used at all in power play - general cannot say to ruler "respect me more or I will help rebellion", so it is useless in any power clashes, which could create dynamical politics.
rebellion themselves are similar story that could be more elaborated in separate threads, they also remained quite sterile and succeed only when formally removing ruler hated by everyone, which can be achieved easier by protest.
rebellions cannot affect feudal hierarchy, government can be changed by simple button pressing without rebellion, so rebellions also fall of category of ceremonial actions.
this is particularly grotesque when large number of nobles stand up against ruler who is deemed too weak in relation to dukes, new ruler ascends to throne, who again cannot do anything against dukes. Dukes were obstructing old ruler, dukes will continue obstructing new ruler. Dukes are powerful, but their main power is exerted through blocking events, not to initiating them, and they are very protected in doing that. i hoped new tax system will help, but do not ever see it happening.

Banker
Becoming a banker and arranging the food trade by contacting other realm Bankers. Otherwise who Banker is foolish enough to trust an unknown, new Trader who has no reputation. Of course Bankers do not look like doing much either. Other than Black Market, I do not recall it is of much use. So I concur it is ceremonial as Stue points out  :-\
 

if all things fit fine by luck, generals can at least gain informal respect by winning war campaign, while banker have little chance to gain any respect, as almost noone can see their usefulness or proof that they can affect anything. with giving lot of trading options to dukes, bankers were additionally rendered hopeless to the point that I am prone to beleive it would be better if they were shut down totally.

Judge

I do understand in recent times, Judges come into much focus as they are blocked by fear, past cases and IR. Instead of focus on the player inactivity, why not the Judge focus on the character disobeying order instead? This has potential to create conflict and generate enough interest for the game. The characters involved will have much disdain for each other. Best example is when SaDiablo as Lukon Judge on Colonies island, he executed Lady Silks Noble, causing much friction between both their character family. Of course the high gold bounty put on Lucivar SaDiablo's head can only come from who else but Noble family member 8)

had you chance to see it in practice, in last years? i have seen brand new players who received advice from older players ang began to use ooc shield soon after joining game.  in-game disobediences were followed by later ooc messages like "sorry guys I had no time to play" and it worked fine even when player was sending troop opposite to where is ordered (so it means he logged in but intentionally worked against orders), where explanation was something like "i had real life issues, so i did not have time to read orders carefully"! with such situation and bolts hitting frequently, i am not surprised to see judges in fear and strongly disagree with idea that "it is matter of players (judges) mentality"


what i am trying to accomplish in these posts is to reveal, through discussion, how there are elements and concepts of game mechanics which are directly responsible for fun-killing.

Indirik

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with such situation and bolts hitting frequently, i am not surprised to see judges in fear and strongly disagree with idea that "it is matter of players (judges) mentality"
This is blatantly false. I can't even remember the last time a judge got bolted. And you don't get bolted for punishing someone for not following orders. The only bolt I remember in the past 4 or 5 years was for someone tossing around some pretty nasty personal attacks.

Players have got to stop sensationalizing and exaggerating the frequency of characters getting bolted. It just doesn't happen. Continuing to claim it does is fear-mongering and damaging to the game.
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this is so common that it's explain in basic wiki guide if i remember well. that i general one and only power and cannot be used at all in power play - general cannot say to ruler "respect me more or I will help rebellion", so it is useless in any power clashes, which could create dynamical politics.

Unless the general is better friends with the judge than the ruler. Though, yes, it should be generally a bad policy to publicly consider rebellion unless the ruler is extremely hated. Regarding rebellions not changing anything, while I will fairly admit that I haven't seen rebellions do much since I returned, I do remember times when rebellions in a realm had continental ramifications. Of course, that was also when it was *much* easier to rebel (only needed 3 nobles, not a certain proportion of the realm). Considering how much easier it is to protest (and generally safer) than rebel, perhaps the proportion should be shifted downward slightly. Still, rebellions will always be a risky proposition. For what its worth, that risk is rewarded with extra reward in the ability to change the government system, which can't be done post-protests.

if all things fit fine by luck, generals can at least gain informal respect by winning war campaign, while banker have little chance to gain any respect, as almost noone can see their usefulness or proof that they can affect anything. with giving lot of trading options to dukes, bankers were additionally rendered hopeless to the point that I am prone to beleive it would be better if they were shut down totally.

My banker absolutely disproves this. My banker currently has *vastly* more respect in her realm than the general does, who has considerable respect across the continent. Increased the realm's tax collection by 30% in one week, brought in an extra 2k gold in food deals, subsidizing various realm expenses etc. Now she's running for ruler (hopefully winning) and if she wins, the banker will become the favored position ahead of general or judge. Bankers can have power and influence if they strive for it.

Indirik

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adding some small game mechanics to military council could indeed make it more attractive to some extent
Out of curiosity, what types of power/mechanics do you think a military council should have?
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Stue (DC)

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Out of curiosity, what types of power/mechanics do you think a military council should have?

I do not have exact and firm belief, while i do have belief that power should be increased if we want some events. non-revolutionary tweaks are likely possible which would enable council members and some other positions to set things on fire when they decide on it.

it is my first post in this thread i believe where i posted some propsal. i will repeat them, while some justifications can be found up there:

- rulers - much stronger exile option
- generals - ability to see all armies' orders and standing orders
- judges - they just need some additional guidance which could relieve them of apparent fear, that could possibly be done through this forum, or wiki update
- bankers - control of foreign trade - ability to impose selling/buying prices for foreign trade over lord's offers plus ability to limit or completely shut down trade with particular realms.
- generals/marshals - ability to dismiss any noble from army (marshals limited to own army), generals also to have ability to dismiss every marshal. they should not be able to assign them to armies (except for their vassals), but should be able to ban them from armies.

Vita`

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I very much like the idea of banker being able to impose realm-specific minimum/maximum trading prices. I could easily see a counter-argument that that should be left to the banker's influence so that there is yet another reason for internal conflict though. The same effect could be made, without imposing a hard limit, by allowing bankers to receive reports of all trades involving regions of the realm (or only regions whose granaries they have access to?). Then, a banker could announce such trading price policy, lords could either follow or not follow the banker's commands, but the banker is at least aware of their policy being broken, unlike now.

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My banker absolutely disproves this. My banker currently has *vastly* more respect in her realm than the general does, who has considerable respect across the continent. Increased the realm's tax collection by 30% in one week, brought in an extra 2k gold in food deals, subsidizing various realm expenses etc. Now she's running for ruler (hopefully winning) and if she wins, the banker will become the favored position ahead of general or judge. Bankers can have power and influence if they strive for it.

See also: Hrok Stefanovic of Luria Nova. Some of the most influential members of Luria have or have had massive loans and debts owed to him, and the man almost single handedly funded the first half of the realm's war against D'Hara -- and made a profit. Had I more time to put into playing him, I have absolutely no doubt that he could be one of the most influential (and therefore powerful) people on Dwilight... all by leveraging his position as Banker.
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