Expecting the wrong type of Roleplaying game

[Foundation]

I must say that though at first, realms like Caligus and Perdan annoyed me as they were distinctively different from the majority of realms nowadays that concentrate on intra-realm conflicts and power struggles.  It is certainly fun to play in the realms where the main focus is player versus player, and as Vellos said, it's natural to have more beef with your own duke or council member who you don't agree with rather than an entirely foreign entity.

I do believe now, however, that the other kind of play is very enjoyable as well.  When the realm plays as a team and work together for the common goal and share the results, it's heartwarming and feels like accomplishment.  Thus, now I enjoy playing all my characters, including those in realms like Caligus that are very "old-schooled".

[Indirik]

...and as Vellos said, it's natural to have more beef with your own duke or council member who you don't agree with rather than an entirely foreign entity.

I agree that it is quite possible, and maybe even likely, for you to have more of a quarrel with your own realm mates than the putative enemy. But part of being a noble, and having a liege lord to whom you have sworn an oath of honor, is honoring that oath to the best of your abilities. You march to war not because you like your liege, or because you hate your enemy. You march to war because your liege lord, and your monarch (or whatever your political system calls them) has commanded you to do so. That doesn't mean you have to like it.

Now, that does not mean that all characters should be marionettes controlled by their marshals and rulers. But a noble's first loyalty should be to their liege. That means knights to their lord, lords to their duke, and dukes to their monarch. Of course you can have quarrels and disagreements. But in the end, your primary loyalty is to your liege. Betrayals, treason, and working against your liege lord should probably not be the norm. If it was, then the system breaks down. And it's hard to have organized, active military conflicts if the system that supports that kind of thing is in chaos.

I may be making huge jumps to a conclusion that doesn't follow, but perhaps that change in focus from team-based, realm-centric conflict toward personal political power struggles is part of the reason for the declining player base? I can't be the only player that prefers the "old school" style of team play.

I do believe now, however, that the other kind of play is very enjoyable as well.  When the realm plays as a team and work together for the common goal and share the results, it's heartwarming and feels like accomplishment.  Thus, now I enjoy playing all my characters, including those in realms like Caligus that are very "old-schooled".

I like being part of a team, and knowing that the rest of the team feels the same way.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

When there are too many subversive elements then the whole begins to decay. I believe there are quite a number of social studies done that concluded as much. There could be an entire piece of commentary based on observations of trends in player behavior in this game. Someone out there must be interested in wasting a lot of time.

[Peri]

I may be making huge jumps to a conclusion that doesn't follow, but perhaps that change in focus from team-based, realm-centric conflict toward personal political power struggles is part of the reason for the declining player base? I can't be the only player that prefers the "old school" style of team play.

I think it can be possible. After all, when nobles in high positions quarrel between them to the point of paralyzing the entire realm, it's hard for nobles or less important Lords to have a glimpse of what happens, besides perhaps sporadic huge public discussions. And for a newcomer it's not exactly easy nor stimulating to see people not doing anything besides arguing to death on pointless things, especially when half of it is done behind closed doors.

[Iltaran]

I must say that though at first, realms like Caligus and Perdan annoyed me as they were distinctively different from the majority of realms nowadays that concentrate on intra-realm conflicts and power struggles.

Hmm, I find this interesting, because my experience has been the opposite. I've always felt like the main focus of the realms I've been in has been on the inter-realm conflict; intra-realm fights were always secondary and often motivated by different views on what should be done regarding inter-realm affairs.

[loren]

Westmoor has had a lot of intra realm conflict, and less inter lately.  But it's all good fun.  Power is power.

[Vellos]

I may be making huge jumps to a conclusion that doesn't follow, but perhaps that change in focus from team-based, realm-centric conflict toward personal political power struggles is part of the reason for the declining player base? I can't be the only player that prefers the "old school" style of team play.

Though I personally prefer the intra-realm conflict and the PvP play rather than Realm vs. Realm, I think you're right.

This explains the appeal of realms like Averoth, where people are playing as a team. Averoth maybe does it excessively but, whatever else you say about them, they (and Thulsoma) do a great job inculcating team play. And have good player retention because of that.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

It does get tiresome when you have too much intrarealm conflict. There's a reason why some powerful guilds in other multiplayer games dissolve eventually. Egos flare and conflicts among the members get in the way of their goals as a cohesive unit. People lose sight of their goals as the greater entity of the group, and instead get shortsighted about what they want as individuals. We all do it.

It's inevitable too, in every instance of groups throughout history. BM is just a very little part of that larger cycle of things, and it's also a game, so by and large it's objectively insignificant compared to the general entropy of the group. Still, it is odd. Even in late 2007 I felt like there was more focus on winning as a realm rather than winning as a player/character. What happened anyway?

[Bedwyr]

Code changed to make realms no longer the main unit of play in a variety of ways.  Taxes became extremely decentralized, Dukes (and to an extent Lords) got a lot more power, Council positions were dramatically weakened, whole realm military control was disallowed in order to fragment control to individual armies, leaving realms became much less dangerous after auto-bans were removed which made it much, much, much less dangerous to defect or secede, nobles are much more tightly bound to their regions and lieges by the oath system, a change of game culture has occurred where primary loyalty is usually supposed to be to your liege rather than your realm which makes it easier to factionalize.

In addition, character count has decreased, heavily weighting the scale toward nobles rather than realms because now nobles make or break realms, rather than overpopulated realms being able to keep nobles in place.  Penalties for fighting at a distance seem to have increased making it harder to find enemies and thus people turn to internal conflict.  And the game culture has changed from a place where realms that didn't even like yours would often help the "legitimate" government put down rebellions and secessions to one where even close allies will likely assist them to gain more power.

[Geronus]

I'm with Indirik on this one. I much prefer to play 'on a team' so to speak, and realms with a high degree of internal strife generally turn me off.

[Indirik]

...whole realm military control was disallowed in order to fragment control to individual armies...

Not quite true. You can still have whole-realm control. Just put everyone in a single army, and appoint the general as the Marshal. This is perfectly legal, if somewhat inflexible.

...a change of game culture has occurred where primary loyalty is usually supposed to be to your liege rather than your realm which makes it easier to factionalize.

True. But your lord's primary loyalty should be his duke. And the duke's primary loyalty should be the ruler.

This is unfortunately something that we don't see often enough. When a region lord has somehow been driven from his realm, and swapped allegiance to another realm, the knights rarely stay with their lord and the new realm. They almost exclusively immediately return to the old realm.

[Vellos]

Code changed to make realms no longer the main unit of play in a variety of ways.  Taxes became extremely decentralized, Dukes (and to an extent Lords) got a lot more power, Council positions were dramatically weakened, whole realm military control was disallowed in order to fragment control to individual armies, leaving realms became much less dangerous after auto-bans were removed which made it much, much, much less dangerous to defect or secede, nobles are much more tightly bound to their regions and lieges by the oath system, a change of game culture has occurred where primary loyalty is usually supposed to be to your liege rather than your realm which makes it easier to factionalize.

In addition, character count has decreased, heavily weighting the scale toward nobles rather than realms because now nobles make or break realms, rather than overpopulated realms being able to keep nobles in place.  Penalties for fighting at a distance seem to have increased making it harder to find enemies and thus people turn to internal conflict.  And the game culture has changed from a place where realms that didn't even like yours would often help the "legitimate" government put down rebellions and secessions to one where even close allies will likely assist them to gain more power.

In other words, the game became more historically accurate. However, comparatively few people opt into Medievalism, so numbers declined.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

There comes a point when we realize that realistic doesn't equate to entertaining all the time, or at least to a large number.

Remember those huge tournaments in Atamara? I'm a bit conflicted about the transitions, but I think that too much catering to the cries for realism have made this game not only more complex, but frankly, less fun on a strategy game level. And how's this game advertised outside? Let's not talk about how we start off as part of a team anymore, because as far as I see, that's not exactly the point of the game anymore. A more accurate description would be: This is a game where you can spend about 15 minutes and probably have a pleasant normal experience of fighting in battles, possibly roleplaying, and checking out the options of different classes. For additional minutes, you get to dance in a macabre performance with deception and betrayal, liars at every turn, smiles hiding daggers, and a poison so sweet you cannot resist but to cast yourself into that web. Or in other words, this game is starting to resemble something more like "Corporate Cutthroat Sim, Selfish style" rather than "Create a Business Empire, Greater Good style"

Now, tell me earnestly, am I really off-base with that assessment? How many realms still hold to the gung-ho attitude of fighting as one, all for one, one for all, that sort of deal? How many have since thrown any sort of group mentality into the wind as the various internal factions struggle for power? Realistic? You bet. Fun? Depends, mainly on how many players you really want to sustain in this game.

[Vellos]

I think maybe you slightly over-idealize how the game was several years ago, but the point is still valid.

In Terran we're kind of... mostly united. That is, the dominant faction is very dominant, and finds the weaker faction politically useful. So we're not really a totally unified team. We're like a symbiotic relationship.

[Perth]

In Terran we're kind of... mostly united. That is, the dominant faction is very dominant, and finds the weaker faction politically useful. So we're not really a totally unified team. We're like a symbiotic relationship.

While this is true, I do think the realm by and large holds a "realm centric" ideal. I mean, even though there are differing factions I think most everybody is united in the goal of having Terran survive and grow and spread. We might all have different ideas as to what it should ultimately look like, but I don't think there is any kind of abandonment of "team work" or working for the realm's success for that of individuals.