Increase Family Wealth Limit

[Buffalkill]

Reread what you wrote, mate, and think about it a little, and I think you'll have answered your own question

It's Monday, so I might need it explained to me. I know you're a stickler for logic though. I think you're saying that if wealth isn't limited, it's therefore infinite?


Even if family wealth isn't capped, it would still be limited by the amount of gold each player can get his hands on, and then by how much he decides to allocate to his family fortune. He can send all of it to the family if he wants, but most won't because there are more interesting things to do with your gold, like building an army. So I think the warnings about "infinite numbers" overwhelming the database and "infinite gold being sucked out of the game" and an out-of-control 'arms-race' of wealth accumulation are exaggerated.

[Anaris]

It's Monday, so I might need it explained to me. I know you're a stickler for logic though. I think you're saying that if wealth isn't limited, it's therefore infinite?


Even if family wealth isn't capped, it would still be limited by the amount of gold each player can get his hands on, and then by how much he decides to allocate to his family fortune. He can send all of it to the family if he wants, but most won't because there are more interesting things to do with your gold, like building an army. So I think the warnings about "infinite numbers" overwhelming the database and "infinite gold being sucked out of the game" and an out-of-control 'arms-race' of wealth accumulation are exaggerated.

The thing is, it doesn't take lots of people trying it for it to become a problem, it only takes one.

Given how fast this many people were able to raise family wealth from the previous cap of 10,000 to the new cap of 20,000, I have no confidence that there would be a long delay before we started hitting the database limits on the size of an integer.

[Buffalkill]

The thing is, it doesn't take lots of people trying it for it to become a problem, it only takes one.

Given how fast this many people were able to raise family wealth from the previous cap of 10,000 to the new cap of 20,000, I have no confidence that there would be a long delay before we started hitting the database limits on the size of an integer.

So whatever the database limit is, why not make that the wealth limit?

[Velax]

Because those of us with realms at war (continent-wide war, no less) don't want to see tens of thousands more gold taken out of their realm that could be used to fight with instead?

Not every island is Atamara. Not every realm is Darka. It's very nice that your realms produce so much gold you don't know what to do with it, but some of us actually need the gold our realms produce so we can fight.

[Jaden]

I think it is unfortunate how gold is distributed in BM, all the peace-loving realms get the most gold while the warmonger realms are so poor. Maybe implement something like a war tax? Like being able to add 2-3% when realms are at war?

[Kwanstein]

Because those of us with realms at war (continent-wide war, no less) don't want to see tens of thousands more gold taken out of their realm that could be used to fight with instead?

Not every island is Atamara. Not every realm is Darka. It's very nice that your realms produce so much gold you don't know what to do with it, but some of us actually need the gold our realms produce so we can fight.

Only about twenty characters have reached the limit. That's enough to fill up the entire Top Families page, but it's still only twenty players across the entire game. Even if they all sent all of their gold back to their families, that would not count for much of a drain. This idea that you, Tom, and perhaps others are suggesting, that there's a risk of a major 'arms race,' with gold, is baseless. It's merely an excuse fabricated to exempt a senseless position from scrutiny.

[Stabbity]

If you can't think of ways to spend family wealth, you are not being creative enough.

[Kwanstein]

There are a set number of ways to spend family wealth, probably all detailed on the wiki. Knowing of them isn't a matter of creativity.

And what would you have people do, set huge bounties and fund revolts? Both of those options are ineffectual. Invest gold or ask for family support? Those do not spend wealth, they merely recirculate it. Buy regions or pay ransoms? Far too situational. There just are not many worthwhile things to spend money on. At least hoarding money gives you the satisfaction of hoarding it. Blasting it all on negligible effects is fleeting and insignificant.

If I were to really want to spend huge amounts of gold, I would simply build and then demolish recruitment centres over and over again. That would provide a chance at some notable gain, in the form of a rare, high quality recruitment centre. That is what I have been doing to try and spend all of my gold. But it has nothing to do with family gold, and it only cuts into excess gold, which is gold that is not very valuable. It is a 'meh' response, that is all.

Ten years ago I was a noob always trying to scrounge up enough gold to recruit a ten man unit, which would often be eliminated mere days after I bought it (battles were very frequent back then). That kind of challenge built in a sense of urgency and intimacy between myself and the wars I was fighting. It's often said that back then common nobles were merely pawns. From a grand strategic view, that is true, but from a more limited perspective, it is false. The personal barrier of trying to obtain gold back then made me far more engaged with the game. Nowadays I really do feel like just an automaton. There's no struggle in getting gold to recruit a unit. My only struggle is getting gold to build recruitment centres which I don't care about. Recruiting 800CS units is easy. It's no struggle at all!

That is getting a bit off track. There is a gold problem, and the Family Wealth thing is a direct result of it, but at this I doubt the former will be solved, so the only hope is to solve the latter, as the latter is very easy to solve. Either by deleting the cause of one of it's negative effects (the silly looking Top Families page), or by raising the cap, which is what this thread is about. Either option is easy to perform, so that is why I bring them up, rather than discuss the more difficult solutions to the matter of excess gold itself.

[Velax]

Only about twenty characters have reached the limit. That's enough to fill up the entire Top Families page, but it's still only twenty players across the entire game. Even if they all sent all of their gold back to their families, that would not count for much of a drain. This idea that you, Tom, and perhaps others are suggesting, that there's a risk of a major 'arms race,' with gold, is baseless. It's merely an excuse fabricated to exempt a senseless position from scrutiny.

Given that you've provided no reason for this other than to supposedly make a superficial statistic feature looked at by a small percentage of player and meaningful to even fewer players more useful by draining hundreds of thousands of gold from an economy that can't sustain it (and it can't - your experiences in your realms are not indicative of every realm on every continent), I don't think it's us fabricating excuses or senseless positions.

[Kwanstein]

Given that you've provided no reason for this other than to supposedly make a superficial statistic feature looked at by a small percentage of player and meaningful to even fewer players more useful by draining hundreds of thousands of gold from an economy that can't sustain it (and it can't - your experiences in your realms are not indicative of every realm on every continent), I don't think it's us fabricating excuses or senseless positions.

I don't understand most of your post, except for the bit about the game being unable to sustain a smaller gold circulation.

That is false. Years ago the circulation was smaller, and it was spread over a larger amount of players. Due to repeated tax system changes, as well as the outflow of players, the current gold circulation is comparatively bloated. This is true for all realms in the game. No realm today has as many characters as was typical in the past. No realm today has the tax system of the past. Realms today are all richer than they would be in the past. The particulars may vary, but all realms today are comparatively rich.

So there is no risk of realms being sucked dry by these top twenty players and being unable to fight wars. That is an absurd notion which doesn't hold up to any amount of scrutiny.

[Buffalkill]

Because those of us with realms at war (continent-wide war, no less) don't want to see tens of thousands more gold taken out of their realm that could be used to fight with instead?

Not every island is Atamara. Not every realm is Darka. It's very nice that your realms produce so much gold you don't know what to do with it, but some of us actually need the gold our realms produce so we can fight.

You can do what you like with your gold. Nobody's required to send any gold to their family unless they choose. You're also free to move your character to Atamara if that's more to your liking. It's a game about choices. You may not be happy with the choices your realm mates are making, but creating rules and restrictions to get them to do what you want, IMO, is not how the game should be played. If you're realm is at war and everybody is more concerned about hoarding wealth instead of fighting the war then guess what: you'll lose the war.

[Velax]

Really? "Choice"? Plenty of choices are restricted for the sake of game enjoyment and balance. I can't choose to loot my own regions. I can't choose to send gold to my enemies whenever I feel like it. I can't choose to build a palace whenever I want to. I can't choose to create 500 characters and take over a realm. I can't choose to move five regions in a single turn. You continue to provide no reason whatsoever for why this choice is so important to have.

[Buffalkill]

Really? "Choice"? Plenty of choices are restricted for the sake of game enjoyment and balance. I can't choose to loot my own regions. I can't choose to send gold to my enemies whenever I feel like it. I can't choose to build a palace whenever I want to. I can't choose to create 500 characters and take over a realm. I can't choose to move five regions in a single turn. You continue to provide no reason whatsoever for why this choice is so important to have.

Choices and RP'ing are the life blood of the game. If you want to influence players in your realm, use your leadership skills and your powers of persuasion. If your realm is weak because of players sending too much gold out of realm instead of spending it on the military and infrastructure, then you must have weak leadership. Artificial restrictions such as this one don't address weak leadership, they enable it. It shifts the burden from the IG leaders to the Devs.

[Buffalkill]

P.S.

I can't choose to loot my own regions. I can't choose to send gold to my enemies whenever I feel like it. I can't choose to build a palace whenever I want to.

IMO you should be able to do those things.

[Anaris]

IMO you should be able to do those things.

If you want a completely open world, go play a simple play-by-email roleplaying game. BattleMaster has restrictions on what you can do because it's a different kind of game.