Atamara Update?

[Noldorin]

You expected us to fight for you, or you would steal our cities. Lyonesse will not wait, and when the war is over, you will be far humbler.

In what letter did Darka expect you to fight for them? The last 20 posts in here you have all been whining that Darka wanted you as far away from the battlefields as possible.

and not idiotic for Lyonesse?

Why suddenly change behavior?    But well, personally, I would have said that having one regions in a bad shape due to a battle once per 1-2 weeks is better than allying with the enemy of your huge neighbor. But hey, perhaps it was not easy to see that Darka would get angry... You were all aware that Darka literally needed to fight CE in your region, otherwise it would be close to impossible to meet them head on. When you refuse Darka from doing so, what were they supposed to do?

Jaune,

Tell me this, what should Lyonesse have done that would have been friendly to Darka and not idiotic for Lyonesse?

Exact same as during the time leading up to the Lyonesse-Darka war? Would have saved you a duchy, at least.

[Stabbity]

In what letter did Darka expect you to fight for them? The last 20 posts in here you have all been whining that Darka wanted you as far away from the battlefields as possible.

Hard to be as far away from the battlefields as possible WHEN THEY'RE IN YOUR OWN LANDS. Stupid point is stupid. Darka wanted to use Lyonesse to absorb all the damage of the war, when Lyonesse was not involved. Lyonesse began negotiations to resolve this peacefully. Darka marched in and used murderous settings in a region no Cagilan troops were present. That is an act of war.

Why suddenly change behavior?    But well, personally, I would have said that having one regions in a bad shape due to a battle once per 1-2 weeks is better than allying with the enemy of your huge neighbor. But hey, perhaps it was not easy to see that Darka would get angry... You were all aware that Darka literally needed to fight CE in your region, otherwise it would be close to impossible to meet them head on. When you refuse Darka from doing so, what were they supposed to do?

Say we're neighbors. We are amiable. Then one day I break into your house, rape your wife, murder children, and then blame you for it because you wouldn't let me barge through your house to use the bathroom and continue on through your house to use Jim at the end of the block's pool. That is what Darka did.

Exact same as during the time leading up to the Lyonesse-Darka war? Would have saved you a duchy, at least.

The war isn't over yet.

[Noldorin]

Hard to be as far away from the battlefields as possible WHEN THEY'RE IN YOUR OWN LANDS. Stupid point is stupid. Darka wanted to use Lyonesse to absorb all the damage of the war, when Lyonesse was not involved. Lyonesse began negotiations to resolve this peacefully. Darka marched in and used murderous settings in a region no Cagilan troops were present. That is an act of war.

Say we're neighbors. We are amiable. Then one day I break into your house, rape your wife, murder children, and then blame you for it because you wouldn't let me barge through your house to use the bathroom and continue on through your house to use Jim at the end of the block's pool. That is what Darka did.

The war isn't over yet.

They were not there at that exact turn perhaps, but were on the way in or out. Doesn't truly matter all that much. And the region was not used because of the tactical intersection, and to ensure that CE didnt loot. Just send in 2-3 bureaucrats and problem solved!

As for your analogy, its almost to retarded to answer upon. You knew what you were getting in to, and you lost like 1% of your army. But yeah, that's exactly the same thing as you said, duh.

[jaune]

Eston lost. Lyoness was created from that loss, and Lyoness was not content to stand idly by while you destroyed our lands. Of course we're going to stand up against that, especially when we were working on a reasonable solution to this.

Well, you did. Now time will show how that worked for Lyoness. Atleast you are not bored anymore?

[Stabbity]

They were not there at that exact turn perhaps, but were on the way in or out. Doesn't truly matter all that much. And the region was not used because of the tactical intersection, and to ensure that CE didnt loot. Just send in 2-3 bureaucrats and problem solved!

Dead wrong. CE was not in the region, had not been in the region, and was standing by away from the region out of respect for Lyonesse. If you're going to spout off, at least don't present blatant lies. In character is fine, but out of character?

As for your analogy, its almost to retarded to answer upon. You knew what you were getting in to, and you lost like 1% of your army. But yeah, that's exactly the same thing as you said, duh.

Its dead on. Its precisely what Darka did. It marched troops against a peaceful nation and attacked them on their own soil because they're a nation of cowards who can't fathom fighting on their own land.

Also, keep it civilized. No need to flame.

[Eirikr]

Yeah, I don't get why we're even trying to connect Lyonesse to Eston. There's one, maybe two, ex-Estonites in Lyonesse; nobody else in Lyonesse has any reason to be upset that the CE humiliated Eston. It's not that we don't know how Lyonesse was formed (most of us watched the surrender happen in Coria, you know)... we just don't have a reason to care. As far as we're concerned, it wasn't really a bad thing.

You were all aware that Darka literally needed to fight CE in your region, otherwise it would be close to impossible to meet them head on.

I've made this point a few times IC, but I don't know about OOC: Does Darka have nobody interested in strategic challenge? Are they only capable of forming a Big Ball of Death (that, if I recall, Tom has been trying to figure out how to change mechanically) and walking down a single path?

Sure, it's the easiest and most obvious way, but it's simply not true that it's the only way and therefore "needed". Both sides work around the Talerium issue every day. Either Darka was lazy or the relationship really didn't matter to them. (I won't explain my solution here since it could very well still matter.)

They were not there at that exact turn perhaps, but were on the way in or out. Doesn't truly matter all that much.

They were on the way in and we were also coming back from a tour in Silnaria. Even if we weren't trying to stop you from fighting in our lands, Melias is the natural way back to Hawthorne. I haven't checked, but I think using Saradic is a longer trip; when your own realm's priorities (in this case, a war effort) is being hampered by a conflict you're supposed to be neutral in, something needs to change. It's like continuing to work at your cubicle while the trashcan is on fire.

And the region was not used because of the tactical intersection, and to ensure that CE didnt loot. Just send in 2-3 bureaucrats and problem solved!

Is there a typo here? I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. It ensures the CE doesn't loot because it provides access to any region they could move to from Meneriel. I'd call that tactical. Do you mean to say you wanted to fight there because if the CE won in Darkan lands, they could use their remaining hours to loot before heading back for a refit? (Of course making Lyonesse the place to fight because the CE would just go home without looting.) Sorry we weren't willing to shelter you from normal consequences of war and tried to make you responsible for your own loss.

As for your analogy, its almost to retarded to answer upon. You knew what you were getting in to, and you lost like 1% of your army. But yeah, that's exactly the same thing as you said, duh.

Overblown, yes. Invalid, no. I don't see why it matters how much of our army was lost... They were killed in our own realm in a conflict where we were declared as neutral. Let's use the house analogy again: That same neighbor still breaks into the house and threatens your family to not come into the hallway or he'll kill them... is that really any more innocent? Are we supposed to sit in the other room and reply cheerily: "Sure, Joe will be along for you to fight any second! We didn't need to use that hallway anyway! I'll see you again next week to threaten my family and commandeer a room of my house! Oh, and don't mind that flaming trashcan on your way out. We'll just continue to ignore it."

[Stabbity]

Overblown, yes. Invalid, no. I don't see why it matters how much of our army was lost... They were killed in our own realm in a conflict where we were declared as neutral. Let's use the house analogy again: That same neighbor still breaks into the house and threatens your family to not come into the hallway or he'll kill them... is that really any more innocent? Are we supposed to sit in the other room and reply cheerily: "Sure, Joe will be along for you to fight any second! We didn't need to use that hallway anyway! I'll see you again next week to threaten my family and commandeer a room of my house! Oh, and don't mind that flaming trashcan on your way out. We'll just continue to ignore it."

+1

[Velax]

I suggest toning down the hostility in this thread, or it'll be locked.

[jaune]

I guess we have gone through this enough already. Both think they did right thing. And atleast i understand why Lyoness did what it did, not that i think it was good move... but still kind of understand.

More than that, i'm intrested how Talerium & Darka and Talerium & CE relations will evolve after CE marched through Talerium lands and is now looting Darka.

[Blue Star]

Seriously. WTF? You are really promoting the idea that it'd be better to have been a boring, silent realm that did nothing, has more game mechanic reports than actual player messages etc. than to actually say...play the game of battlemaster? I'd take the path of doom and destruction every day before death by apathy, but by god, that wasn't the intention either.

I find Erikr's previous post to be a fair analysis of the situation and I'm likely to be just as repetitive in the following sentences. Darka acts like there was no choice and its all Lyonesse's fault, but let's not forget that every relationship requires action by both parties. Darka chose to attack Lyonesse murderously. Darka chose to persuade a capital margrave to betray his realm (how interesting that its always Atanamir's character convincing others to betray their realms). Darka chose to ignore a travel treaty's discussion until the last moment when they refused to sign. Darka chose to trespass into Lyonesse. Darka chose to threaten lords within their own region to gtfo or else. Lyonesse may have been 'stupid' for not cowardly submitting, but Darka is by not means innocent - their actions led to this as much as Lyonesse's refusal to roll over.

You know what else is interesting? Gian left because he wanted some 'continental balance', ie this whole CE is the devil and should be fought idea. The *same* lord who was attacked by Darka murderously, lost his region etc. wanted to join Darka and fight CE because 'continental balance'. How does that make *any* sense?

[/rant (mods feel free to edit if my words were too heated)]

Someones upset? Well sarcasm is hard to convey over forums.

Think Lyonese nobles need to chill and Jaune aren't you retiring? taking it to serious, its a game you play the cards you are dealt you can fold or you can play. No matter what learn to enjoy the game.

I think Lyonese personally should of went to war with CE it would of been a better choice. I mean destruction is not wrong, but going down with the Ship does get you wet and makes it easier for the sharks to get you.

[Stabbity]

Someones upset? Well sarcasm is hard to convey over forums.

Think Lyonese nobles need to chill and Jaune aren't you retiring? taking it to serious, its a game you play the cards you are dealt you can fold or you can play. No matter what learn to enjoy the game.

I think Lyonese personally should of went to war with CE it would of been a better choice. I mean destruction is not wrong, but going down with the Ship does get you wet and makes it easier for the sharks to get you.

Yea, this would be the best Cassus Belli ever: "Dear CE, you have been respectful of our borders, so we're going to war with you to support the guys who attacked us in cold blood. kthxbye."

[Eirikr]

I'm more confused by the assumption that Lyonesse would have fared better in a war against the CE. They came and mopped up the Barony no problem and Lyonesse isn't in much better shape. IMO, the CE would have actually wiped us out by now because they'd have Rieleston waiting for our lands and don't seem to be fans of leaving loose ends anymore.

[Lorgan]

Boo! Loose ends ftw!

[jaune]

Yea, this would be the best Cassus Belli ever: "Dear CE, you have been respectful of our borders, so we're going to war with you to support the guys who attacked us in cold blood. kthxbye."

Yes, they were very respectfull for your borders? Marched through them while ruler says "Sorry, miscommunication, we turn back!" and General keeps keeping his ears closed and marches through your lands loots for day or 2 and then realizes that miscommunication and says "sowwy!". Thats good respect of borders Then you wonder why i dont trust if you say CE wont attack you through our lands!

[Eirikr]

Boo! Loose ends ftw!

Yeah, despite my impassioned words against Darka, I do still have a lot of respect for their "We'll clear out everything that was in our way, but the rest is whatever." mentality. Unless you guys just haven't hit Sale because of the monsters.