Author Topic: Posts that do not provide evidence  (Read 10450 times)

Buffalkill

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Posts that do not provide evidence
« Topic Start: November 06, 2013, 04:26:58 PM »
As long as the seceding realm stays out of the war there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe they'd agree to sign a non-aggression pact.

Buffalkill

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #1: November 06, 2013, 06:14:06 PM »
Just because they may have been planning this for years, and for reasons independent of the war, doesn't mean that the timing wasn't influenced by the strategic implications. I doubt the timing was totally random, and while there were likely other factors involved, it's hard to believe that the strategic implications in the current state of war didn't enter into anyone's thinking. If they really didn't wish to gain a strategic advantage in this war then let them sit this one out, or at least stay out of it for a specified period of time. That way the opposing realm will have time adjust its deployments accordingly. Otherwise it's a veiled strategic secession and it puts the opposing realm at a disadvantage.

Indirik

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #2: November 06, 2013, 06:15:18 PM »
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Indirik

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #3: November 06, 2013, 06:17:21 PM »
If they really didn't wish to gain a strategic advantage in this war then let them sit this one out, or at least stay out of it for a specified period of time. That way the opposing realm will have time adjust its deployments accordingly.
That's not really possible. It's also ridiculously exploitable.
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Indirik

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #4: November 06, 2013, 06:20:52 PM »
Frankly, this is one of those rules that exists as a relic of earlier attitudes. I haven't seen a legitimate case of strategic secession in years, despite constant accusations. I'm thinking the last one to my memory was in Luz de Bia, and one of the last lightning bolts or storms (i don't remember which)?
There are only two cases of this that I can remember as being obvious. Well, obvious to me, anyway. And they both occurred many years ago. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone ever punished for it.

However, that is also irrelevant. Just because a rule hasn't been broken in a long time doesn't mean that the rule no longer applies.
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Vita

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #5: November 06, 2013, 06:25:07 PM »
I am not saying it doesn't apply. I'm saying that as I've seen so many accusations over the years and few legitimate cases, I'm a bit wary of any new accusations. And this one doesn't measure up to what would be considered a violation of the rule. I'm saying that there really are few instances of this rule getting violated and its thrown around as an accusation more than necessary.

Buffalkill

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #6: November 06, 2013, 06:33:49 PM »
That's not really possible. It's also ridiculously exploitable.


Of course it's possible if the parties agree to it. If the seceding realm isn't willing to forgo this supposed advantage then they're in violation of the rule.

Anaris

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #7: November 06, 2013, 06:35:06 PM »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Anaris

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #8: November 06, 2013, 06:36:21 PM »

Of course it's possible if the parties agree to it. If the seceding realm isn't willing to forgo this supposed advantage then they're in violation of the rule.

Buffakill, you are clearly horribly ignorant of the specific facts of the case.

There is no way in twelve hells that Enweil would be wiling to accept IVF's neutrality even if IVF were to try to ask for it. They want the city back.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Anaris

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #9: November 06, 2013, 06:39:05 PM »
Frankly, this is one of those rules that exists as a relic of earlier attitudes. I haven't seen a legitimate case of strategic secession in years, despite constant accusations. I'm thinking the last one to my memory was in Luz de Bia, and one of the last lightning bolts or storms (i don't remember which)?

That was a capital move, not a secession. And it was a bolt, not a storm: part of my outrage at the time was that their "punishment" for moving the capital effectively amounted to nil, since it occurred during the period where the "insta-elections" bug was still extant. This meant that though the ruler lost his position, he healed up at the turn change, and was also re-elected as Ruler, mere hours after the lightning bolt.

But yes, I cannot offhand recall an actual secession that was deemed strategic and punishment handed down for its execution. I believe that the fact that we have the rule against it more or less works.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Chenier

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #10: November 06, 2013, 07:14:36 PM »

Anaris

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #11: November 06, 2013, 07:34:41 PM »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Anaris

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #12: November 06, 2013, 07:45:13 PM »

IMO the intent is not as important as the consequence. The consequence of this secession appears to be precisely the type of unfair disadvantage that the rule exists to prevent. Doesn't matter that they've been thinking about it for years. It looks kinda like insider trading to me.

Please describe for me exactly how this realm with one depopulated region and one noble will cause a measurable unfair disadvantage for Enweil.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Buffalkill

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #13: November 06, 2013, 07:55:23 PM »
Please describe for me exactly how this realm with one depopulated region and one noble will cause a measurable unfair disadvantage for Enweil.


If they continue the war then Enweil is suddenly in a two-front war.

Vita

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Re: Posts that do not provide evidence
« Reply #14: November 06, 2013, 08:21:55 PM »
For what its worth, we've all made our points here and lest this turn into every other magistrate thread, filled with repetitive, pointless arguments, we should probably step back and let the Magistrates weigh in or ask for clarifying information. We're nearing the third page already and I note that only one Magistrate has posted here and as the reporter himself is recused from typical magistrate duties.