Author Topic: Advanced Mentoring and History: Trade Systems and Food  (Read 4407 times)

Vellos

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Introduction
This guide will be aimed at explaining the caravan trade system. I'm unsure if it is used on stable, but it predominates on testing islands. It is complex, and so often forms a barrier to newer players. This guide will be divided into two sections:
1. The Basic Mechanics- This section will provide a primer on how to work the system, explaining the Warehouse, Send out Caravans, and Trade Offers menus.
2. The Political Dynamics- This section will provide some discussion about how the system can be worked for political gain by either food-suppliers (rural lords) or food-demanders (cities)
3. Examples- This section will offer a few supplementary items

The Basic Mechanics
Trade can be fully understood by mastering three game-menus. As a lord, go to your "Command" menu. Once there, note the "Warehouse" option, not the "new caravan system" warehouse, but the other one. Also note the "Send Out Caravans" option and "Trade Offers." These are your essential menus.

Warehouse
The warehouse gives you data about how much surplus or deficit food your region has/needs. That information is supplied in the green box in the bottom right: "demand" is a measure of deficit, "surplus" is a measure of surplus, obviously. You can transfer food to another region neighboring yours using Ox Carts. Ox Carts gain you no revenue, and travel slowly. However, Ox Carts are useful in emergencies: say a neighboring region is starving, or an enemy army is approaching your region. Ox Carts can be used to evacuate food, even when no "buy offer" is established in another region. Think of Ox Carts as a "gift" of food. In sum, the Warehouse is useful for emergencies and for information about your region.

Send Out Caravans
The Send Out Caravans option is the "active" means of selling/buying food. As a region lord, you can send caravans to another region, even a very distant one. You can give one of two types of orders to a caravan: buy orders or sell orders.

If you send a caravan through rogue territory, there is a strong chance it will be robbed of its food or gold. So be careful.

Caravans sent to buy food are usually used by cities. A duke needs food, and has plenty of gold. So he packs up some gold in a caravan and sends it to a rural region to buy food "at or below" a certain price. So:

Send a caravan to REGION A to buy food at a price of #20 gold or less(*). Put #80 gold into the caravan.

Would mean I sent a caravan to region A. When it gets there, it will try to spend 80 gold on food that costs 20 gold or less: so I am "expecting" to buy 400 bushels of food (80 / 20 = 4 units, 1 unit of food is 100 bushels). If my caravan found food there for 10 gold, it would still try to spend 80 gold, so would buy 800 bushels of food. If Only 600 bushels were available at 10 gold, it would buy 600 bushels, and return with 600 bushels and 20 gold. If, however, my caravan found food priced at 30 gold, it would not spend any gold. If food is priced below expectations, it will be purchased. If food is priced above expectations, it will never be purchased, no matter how much gold you send with the caravan. Thus, if you want to guarantee your ability to purchase some food, set a high expected price.

Let us say, instead, that you are a rural lord. Rural lords will rarely buy food. Usually they sell food. So:
Send a caravan to CITY B to sell food at a price of 20 gold or more(*). Put 400 bushels of food into the caravan.

Would mean I sent a caravan to city B. When it gets there, it will try to sell 400 bushels for 20 gold or more: so I am "expecting" to be paid 80 gold (20 gold x 4 = 80, 1 unit of food is 100 bushels). If my caravan found a buy offer placed at 30 gold, it would sell food at that higher price, so I would receive 120 gold instead of 80 gold. If only 60 gold was available at that 30 gold price, however, only 200 bushels would be sold, so my caravan would return with 60 gold and 200 bushels of food. If, however, my caravan found food priced at 10 gold, it would not sell any food. If food is priced below expectations, it will not be sold. If food is priced above expectations, it will still be sold. Thus, if you want to guarantee your ability to sell some food, set a low expected price.

It is worth noting that caravans are what we call in economics an "ask." The prices you set for a caravan is a threshold: you will not buy above that threshold, nor sell below it. But that does not fix the price. That price is your "worst case" price: the most you are willing to pay for a buy caravan or the least you are willing to be paid for a sell caravan. The price is fixed by trade offers, which we will discuss next.

Trade Offers
Trade offers are "bids," economically speaking. They fix the price.

Note the reference to a fixed price:
Offer to buy food from caravans for a fixed price of X gold per 100 bushels.
Offer is open until (choose one) either X bushels have been bought(*) or X gold has been spent.

Caravans, explained above, interact with trade offers.

When a caravan goes to a region expecting to sell 400 bushels for 20 gold per unit, it is "asking" for a trade "offer" or trade "bid" of 20 gold, with at least 80 gold available to be spent. If a lord has "placed a bid" of 20 gold or more, the transaction will occur. If the lord has not, the transaction will not.

Alternatively, if a caravan goes to a region expecting to buy food for 20 gold per unit with 80 gold available, it is "asking" for a trade "offer" or trade "bid of 20 gold, with at least 400 bushels available to be sold. If a lord has "placed a bid" of 20 gold or less, the transaction will occur. If the lord has not, the transaction will not.

So, these two offers are equivalent:
Offer to buy food from caravans for a fixed price of 20 gold per 100 bushels.
Offer is open until (choose one) either 400 bushels have been bought(*) or N/A gold has been spent.

Offer to buy food from caravans for a fixed price of 20 gold per 100 bushels.
Offer is open until (choose one) either N/A bushels have been bought(*) or 80 gold has been spent.

In either case, 80 gold will be taken from the lord immediately, and "stored" in the Warehouse.

The warehouse is not a perfect storage unit. If you place money in a trade offer, you cannot withdraw it without cost. A fee is charged on any cancelled trade offer. I believe that fee may be equal to the tax rate; someone else may know better.

"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Vellos

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Addendum:

If you set an automatic transfer, the manual price will be prioritized.

The game will not process automatic purchases or sales until all manual purchases or sales have been exhausted.

I do not cover automatic purchases or sales in this tutorial because, while they are widely used, I think they are stupid.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Anaris

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Some notes from a dev on changes to expect in the trade system Real Soon Now™:

  • Automatic caravan missions—to be sent out to buy or sell food when under or over certain thresholds
  • Ox carts going away entirely
  • The prices and limits for caravans actually going into effect
  • Troops being able to loot or in some other way interdict caravans from passing through the region they're in—including both lord-sent caravans and trader-owned caravans

There are probably a couple of others, but I can't remember them just at the second.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Vellos

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When those are implemented, I will investigate them, and post further addendums.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Vellos

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The Political Dynamics

This is the fun part of food. This section will be divided into three parts:
1. The Patron-Duke- Guidelines on how to use the economic strength of a duke: vast sums of gold
2. The Merchant-Baron- Guidelines on how to use the economic strength of rural lords: abundance of food
3. The Arbitrageur- Guidelines on how to do some more complicated economic maneuvers

The Patron-Duke
Dukes have gold. Moreover, dukes have a special button: the "Trade Settings" button allowing them to see the supply/demand of food in their duchy, as well as next week's supply/demand.

Dukes can leverage their power in three major ways:
1. Competitive pricing
2. Informal trade intermediation
3. Feudal premiums

Competitive Pricing
Competitive pricing is simple. A rich duke can bankrupt a poorer duke by offering high prices for food. While gold/food demand ratios are loosely equivalent, they are not perfectly equivalent. Some cities demand more food per gold produced. Moreover, some lords run higher tax rates than others, or have higher productivity. Thus, a city with a higher gold output per food demanded (through investment, good management, higher tax rates) can outbid another city: sometimes even a larger city.

This is a passive tool. The other city will be forced into either bankruptcy or starvation. If the duke of the other city is a general, marshal, or otherwise militarily involved person, the task is even easier, as they will be financing a unit. If the "rich-city" lord is, say, a priest, his/her costs will be very low (and temples are tax-exempt stores of wealth for such an economically involved lord). Thus, within fairly short order, the "rich-city duke-priest" can reduce the political influence of the "poor-city duke-knight" by offering rural lords better prices and, essentially, subsidizing rural development. Combined with feudal premiums, this tactic can be extremely powerful.

The primary obstacle to this practice is the banker. Most bankers like to standardize prices throughout the realm. Doing so makes this strategy vastly less efficient. However, it can still be informally managed: while a banker may standardize prices, they might not force quantity shipments. As such, the rich-duke can simply ensure he/she always sets buy orders early, and in huge quantities, and then personally, individually contact rural lords, arranging transactions.

Another strategy in a fixed-price economy is to befriend a rural or townsland lord that has lots of warehouse space, ship food to him, and constantly ship it back-and-forth, meaning it will not show up in surplus/deficit calculations. This tactic will make the rich city starve, and provide an excuse to break food price caps or demand more quantity, but it is risky, time-consuming, and harms the city, perhaps removing the comparative advantage in wealth.

It is worth noting that foreign lords can be included in this. There is no reason to neglect that juicy rural nearby ruled by a friendly neighbor. Contact its lord. If properly managed, this strategy can serve to undermine a "frenemy" realm.

Informal trade intermediation
Dukes are often well-connected, better so than many rural lords. If a duke positions himself as a "business partner" or a "food broker," he can arrange to purchase food from rurals, and hold it for foreign traders to acquire. This can be extremely profitable for the duke, and is made possible by possessing markets and foreign ties: so guilds are useful for a duke attempting this strategy. This strategy primarily serves to build trust and political capital on the home front if a realm has a food surplus.

If a realm has a food deficit, the duke can arrange to make food purchases in his city, and then control the distribution of it. Frequent high-profile deals with foreign countries can serve as a good platform for a duke hoping to become a ruler.

Feudal Premiums
For a duke hoping to secede, or simply wanting lots of political power, or who wants a larger tax base, a large duchy is useful. But why would lords change their duchy? Maybe personal reasons, which we can't always control. Maybe favorable tax treatment (though this is usually a small reason).

A difficult but effective tool to increase a duchy, however, is price discrimination. Offer better prices to lords within your duchy. This requires that the duke do two things:
1. Set buy offers at price X in his city
2. Send caravans to his lords' regions to buy food at price X + P (premium on oath)

Thus, he/she buys food from anyone in the city, but personally purchases at a preferential price (alliteration FTW!) from his feudally obligated lords. This solidifies feudal oaths and personal loyalties, and incentivizes other lords to change their allegiance. When combined with price competition, price discrimination can be a potent tool for undermining another duke.

The Merchant-Baron
Rural lords have obvious power. They control the supply. The power of lords is exercised in the same way the power of dukes is exercised, but inversely:
Price Competition- Lords can choose to sell to the highest bidder, even if that person is a foreigner
Outsourcing- While lords can find their own intermediaries, lords have numerous "helpers," be they dukes or bankers, who are available to help them arrange and get infrastructure for such transactions
Price Discrimination- Lords can control who they offer allegiance to

However, some unique powers also exist in the form of:
1. Withholding- Simply put: starve the cities.
2. Undercutting- Lords can undermine each other within a certain range
3. Inverse Bribes- Operationally identical to undercutting, but with a different objective: political favoritism

Withholding
A high-risk strategy certain to infuriate dukes who starve and bankers who get complained to. Withholding food is a last resort of lords desperate to accomplish some political objective. It is frequently counter-productive and gets the lord banned, but in some circumstances can be valuable. It is the equivalent of an economic declaration of war, so be careful about doing it.

If withholding is implemented, there are two basic types: vocal and silent. Vocal withholding has an agenda it wants accomplished, and declares that the withholding has a certain objective. It holds the realm ransom, essentially. Silent withholding is often unnoticed and can go on for longer for two reasons:
1. People just don't realize it's happening
2. People assume you're inactive for at least a little while
3. People will try to convince you to cooperate for a long time before they whip out the big guns like bans and fines

A note for judges: It is often intuitive to ban a withholding lord. A suggest a better solution is to fine the lord a sum sufficient to purchase his food on the black market, or to purchase an equivalent sum from another realm. That way, the lord's estate is not lost and the region is still managed, courts may be held, and the fiasco of banishing a potentially influential lord is avoided, but the realm will suffer significantly less (and trade can serve as a segue to larger diplomacy)

Undercutting
Just as some cities have a greater gold/food demanded ratio, so many rurals, due to similar factors, have a higher food supplied/gold ratio. As such, some lords can afford to charge less for food and yet enjoy an equivalent income (again, this is easier for priests, who can keep a region in line and have little need for their income). Undercutting food prices undermines other rural lords. This may not be desirable for a lord but, in some cases, might be.

Example:
City A gets food from two regions, Region B and Region C
Lord B hates Lord C
Lord B becomes a priest, invests in region, manages it well, and drastically reduces food price, and otherwise influences Duke A, gaining his/her favor
Duke A asks Lord C to drop price
Lord C either accepts, and faces an income decline (perhaps mandating higher taxes), or refuses, and loses face with Duke A

Again, not universally useful: but sometimes very useful. Limited in effect, however, because any individual region is tightly restricted in how much food it can ever supply, while cities managed by priests have practically infinite capacity to purchase food, provided they have sufficient warehouse space.

Inverse Bribes
A lord can set a sale price that is very low in his region, and ask dukes to send caravans there to purchase it. This earns favor with those dukes, and can be a stepping stone to greater power.

Arbitrageurs
I have actually decided not to discuss the intricacies of effective BM arbitrage because of Tim's notice that significant changes to the trade system are coming, and those changes will undoubtedly alter the availability of arbitrage.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Peri

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While I must congratulate for the very nice work you did, Vellos, if you accept some criticism I don't think this post is adequate for the title.

If one wants a tutorial about food, it should be neutral and just explaining the mechanics. Eventually, some kind of advanced tutorial can be made for strategies on how to build power or gold through economy, but I find that the tone you gave to this post can be extremely confusing for someone new to the world of trade. Especially because you refer to too many things one rural lord (the most likely position someone that has no clue about food system will get) would definitely have a hard time to get to know.

So in my opinion you should first of complete what you did by adding sections about automatic shipments and the trader class, starting by explaining what food is and how the game uses it, and relocate all your strategies somewhere else or eventually in a second paragraph.

ps. slightly out of topic: is the chat with merchants of the trader class working? As long as I can remember it never gave useful informations.

Vellos

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This is advanced mentoring. It's not an introduction to food. It's assumed you have some interaction with the system.

The goal of these advanced mentoring things is not to tell a rural lord how he can set up an automatic transfer. That's not the point. That can be explained in a simpler format, or just an IG message. When Bedwyr contacted me about helping with this, he explained it as:
1. Topic(s?) on the forum where people can ask questions and get answers about high-end power politics, tricky tactics, underhanded maneuvers, and all the other tools of the trade at the upper echelons of Battlemaster play.  For this to have legitimacy, it needs some big names behind it so people know that we know what we're talking about.

2. Collaborate and come up with some primers, lessons, musings, what have you to put on the wiki for people to look through to understand how decisions get made and how to make themselves movers and shakers (sort of like the Mentor books people have written, but for higher levels of play).

3. Have people answer questions about histories of realms and continents in places new people can see them so that we don't have people being blindsided by events that happened years ago and getting their realms wiped out.  It happened to me a lot and it still happens to me with Jenred even though he's the longest-running Ruler on the Far East right now.  Ancient history matters, and there just isn't much about it.  Having wiki histories is great where we can get them, but most won't bother, and people may not know where to look or despair at the amount of material.  A place where questions can be asked and answered on a reasonable timescale would be a godsend for a lot of people rising up through the ranks.


In sum, I'm not very interested in forming a central database for basic functions in the game. I'll let somebody else do it because, frankly, that stuff is boring. I'm here to offer some mentoring on advanced, high-level actions.

I apologize if this came across as arrogant, but if this is just going to be a Tutorial 2.0, just a help page explaining mechanics, I'm bored, and not very interested in contributing. Advanced mentoring is for when you've exhausted the help pages and IG tutorials, IMHO.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Peri

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I understand. Objection withdrawn but generalized. See the central advanced mentoring post.

egamma

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Traders
« Reply #8: May 10, 2011, 12:58:29 AM »
I'm a trader on Dwilight. I'll add some info here, although I'm about to leave work.

Trader Unit
Traders should maintain a small, strong, cheap unit. Focus on armor above other values--you you get caught in a battle, you want your unit to keep you from getting captured, not fight off 50 monsters. I typically keep about a dozen men, to fend off bandits. However, I stick to sea routes--if you journey across the wilderness of western Dwilight then you may want two or three times as many. Your goal is to avoid conflict wherever possible--if you get wounded, or thrown in jail, then your realm may starve.

Merchant Chats
Merchant chats do work, at least on testing, although they are not very useful. Many of the reported regions have no buy/sell value set, (which I find odd, since you almost always have either a surplus or a deficit.) The reports typically report on the 20 regions closest to you, with some randomness, but if you do 5 merchant chats in a row you will likely hear from 30 regions, rather than 100.

Number of caravans
It takes twice as long to move 12 caravans, as it does to move 6 (or roughly twice as much). You will move VERY slow. This is only worth doing for very long routes, where you can actually buy 1200 bushels of food. Caravans also cost money. I suggest starting out with 4 caravans, then buying more once you decide you like being a trader, and find better contacts.

Contacts
Speaking of contacts, your best contact is a duke with sufficient clout to do your food gathering for you. It takes a lot longer to travel across a realm, buying 100 bushels from every local lord, than it does to have all that food ready for you in a single city. Note that setting up this arrangement takes time, so do this before you journey out from your home realm. Bankers can be very helpful with this task.

Vellos

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Note the connection between egamma's discussion of trade contacts and my point about trade intermediaries.
"A neutral humanism is either a pedantic artifice or a prologue to the inhuman." - George Steiner

Foundation

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Love the posts, keep it coming, Vellos!  I'll contribute when I get a chance and if there's anything left to mention.  8)
The above is accurate 25% of the time, truthful 50% of the time, and facetious 100% of the time.