Advanced Mentoring Concerns

[Peri]

If I may object a little on the project, that I think it's great and deserves praise, I would stress that it should be strictly moderated.

As far as my game experience goes, battlemaster has always been deliberately bad at informing people what button does and similar things. I thought Tom rejected more than one feature request because he likes the troubles that experiencing things can create, and I believe it's a great feature of the game.

A very thorough and comprehensive tutorial on almost all the portion of the game would have the double effect of 1) cutting down the mistakes done by people trying the new stuff. I am aware it's VERY annoying when it happens, but it makes the game more interesting. 2) It cuts down interaction between players. If the Marshal or the new Lord as soon as he gets the position reads the potentially huge post that is on the forum, he will lose all the interesting interactions with the General or Duke (for instance) that teach him the ropes of the new position. And yes, of course one can do both, but I don't think anyone would lose much if a "guide on how to be a lord" would be absent. That's what duke rulers and mentors are there for.

On the other hand the huge amount of unknown options can discourage new players, and some kind of good tutorial is needed.

My personal conclusion is that it should be very welcome a tutorial that covers aspects of a newcomer's turns, such as the one about gaining influence, but that very advanced tutorials should be either very vague or at most exploring scarcely the various options. Something too complete would cut down interactions too much, and that's a true pity for this game.

Just a trivial example to clarify (sorry vessol for using your food tutorial again, but it's just the only one present now): a Lord gets appointed by a duke because of his loyalty and, perhaps, naiveness. I have personally more than once rewarded newcomers that proved to be devout and a bit clueless over long standing and reliable people, as youngsters can be shaped exactly in the way you want to. He puts his hands on this mysterious entity called food, and asks the duke or the banker informations about it. They can lie to him as much as they want, as he sees just a tiny bit of the huge trade network going on around him. Fair? certainly not. But I think it's nice and fun, and pushes people to mentor if you allow them to explain the things how they want them to seem. With a tutorial about food such as the one made by Vessol with 2 clicks the guy would know the duke is fooling him. It's ooc, but he would need very little time to ask the right questions and get the right answers IC, driven by ooc knowledge, and wipe out all the interest of the duke in training him.

[Vellos]

Personally, I'd rather have more players that know the tricks of the game.

When I play a boardgame, I get no enjoyment from exploiting the new guy's lack of knowledge. I think of the game Diplomacy, which I love. Playing with new people is fun because of their excitement, but lame because I always win, and I win, not because I'm smarter, but because I've played it so much I know the best moves, and I can calculate supports, moves, support cuts, convoys, etc in my head. New people who are less experienced and don't know the rules can't do so, and they lose.

But when I play with a group of experienced players, it's more fun. We don't have to re-explain every rule, we don't have disputes about fairness and unknown rules, and it's more up-in-the-air about who will win.

BM, obviously, has no winner, so it's a bit different, but the point still stands. I would rather play with people who know what they're doing.

And when that new player doesn't send food even after I've tried explaining it, and finally I get the judge to fine/ban him, and he complains about "Oh, there was this one thing I didn't understand," it simultaneously makes me feel like a jerk and takes away his fun.

This way, I've written a guide so that the learning curve is reduced. Higher-level play involving food politics is much more accessible to new players. I'd rather appoint a new player as lord and have him immediately negotiating competitively than boringly set up an automatic transfer. More chances for RP.

[Aldwoni]

Okay, so, what would people like to see?  Requests make it easier, as directed thinking is always easier for me than global thinking 

Being an Elder of a Religion/Guild?

[Peri]

Ok perhaps I put it a bit to much as if I was an evil mastermind that leads and army of brainless minions. What I really think would ruin the game is the lack of interaction. And asking is a great way to create interaction. And one of the best achievement of the game is, in my opinion, have someone friendly and loyal to one of your chars because you taught him everything. From how to move to how to sell food. The necessary condition for this to be realized is the lack of information on the student's side.

But when I play with a group of experienced players, it's more fun. We don't have to re-explain every rule, we don't have disputes about fairness and unknown rules, and it's more up-in-the-air about who will win.

BM, obviously, has no winner, so it's a bit different, but the point still stands. I would rather play with people who know what they're doing.

You have those already. Your enemies, other dukes etc. Information is power, and that's just one more thing to keep in mind. Dukes who spend much time teaching and involving lesser nobles gain an advantage over other dukes, regardless of the number the game gives them under the form of gold or food.

And when that new player doesn't send food even after I've tried explaining it, and finally I get the judge to fine/ban him, and he complains about "Oh, there was this one thing I didn't understand," it simultaneously makes me feel like a jerk and takes away his fun.

This example is a bit extremal. He could have asked, and if he's a newcomer one can always make an ooc exception and revoke a ban for the sake of good play.

This way, I've written a guide so that the learning curve is reduced. Higher-level play involving food politics is much more accessible to new players. I'd rather appoint a new player as lord and have him immediately negotiating competitively than boringly set up an automatic transfer. More chances for RP.

Your char is free to teach them how to negotiate competitively if that's what you wish. Someone else may prefer a more cohese realm to achieve greater things. Let's face it: a realm with everyone that knows everything is doomed to fail. The steep learning curve of bm justifies the imposing hierarchy it has. One noble is usually a noble not just because he is the last to have joined the game, but also because of the knowledge he lacks. That gives an IC justification to the ooc possible frustration coming from the less fun one lower class noble has.

[Bedwyr]

I'm tired of seeing people fail because they don't know things that their characters would know.  I'm tired of seeing established players having a huge edge because of all the little quirks in the game that don't make sense or aren't stated.

Our characters would have advisors that could tell them things.  Our characters would have families and tutors that could and would teach them.

I really don't think this is going to reduce interactions.  I think this is going to reduce misinformation, increase understanding of game mechanics, and provide a more level playing field.  I want to win wars because I am more politically savvy and better at organizing my realm, not because the other side doesn't know the quirks of the diplomacy system as well as I do, and not because the ally trying to stab me in the back didn't know he could only lower relations once per day.

Rob (Indirik) is trying to get a Newbie Corner set up to handle the basics and tutorials, but I want the Advanced Mentoring to handle all the things that nobles would be educated about, all the intricate tutoring that we don't have the time or inclination to simulate any other way.

[Foundation]

Advanced Mentoring should be advanced, otherwise why would any mildly established players (> a few months) read them?  They can use the in game mentoring or simply helpline to ask specific questions, or the Newbie Corner that Rob's setting up.

[Peri]

I'm tired of seeing people fail because they don't know things that their characters would know.  I'm tired of seeing established players having a huge edge because of all the little quirks in the game that don't make sense or aren't stated.

Ask ask ask! Someone thinks that clicking a nice button without asking what it does is smart? Then face the consequences! Seriously, I don't understand why one would defend people attempting to click random buttons without even trying to get to know what they do.

[Bedwyr]

Ask ask ask! Someone thinks that clicking a nice button without asking what it does is smart? Then face the consequences! Seriously, I don't understand why one would defend people attempting to click random buttons without even trying to get to know what they do.

No one does, and if you think that's what we're talking about, please reread because you're missing the point entirely.

Did you know that secessions cause riots and fighting because of the culture clash between the new realm and the old?  Do you know that you can hold court and draft recruits in the same turn, but only if you do it in the correct order?  Do you know that colonies start their diplomacy neutral to everyone so you have to make sure your troops are all on defensive or make sure both Rulers sign a peace treaty before the next turn after it succeeds?  Do you know that if you make a Stronghold your capital it gets a bank?  Do you know to what percentage of damage you can repair your equipment in a Stronghold?  How about a Townsland?

These are all things that are so game-mechanic-y as to be pretty much completely OOC or are things our characters would know but the game doesn't tell you the information beforehand.  I don't want to win a war because Matthew has played the game since '06 and obsessively checked the wiki and IRC and such and knows all these little bits and quirks and the Ruler of an opposing realm doesn't.  I want to win because Jenred or Malcolm or Koli or whomever is a conniving bastard IC.  You say "Ask ask ask", I say "How the hell would you know to ask in the first place, who would you ask, and how would you trust that they knew what they were talking about?"

The whole point of these threads is to provide information such that someone can go "Hm, what crazy little things are there about being a General, or what about founding a new realm?" and find out without having to have OOC contacts with lots of game experience.

[Peri]

Wait, I think we should distinguish a bit.

First of all I do not really believe you can actually claim that knowing technicalities such as how much you can repair in a stronghold let you win a war. Come on. And anyway, I would not oppose a tutorial that explains or lists such details. I just think this mentoring shouldn't be exactly totally exhaustive and too deep.

As I had replied in the first tutorial by Vellos, if someone writes down how the game uses the food, then maybe the formulae to understand how much the harvests are reduced during the seasons and list the speed and incidents happening to caravans, explain how the offers work, then that would be quite ok. Those are kind of informations one newcomer could understand quickly just by trying a bit and wouldn't really hurt anyone listing them somewhere.

What is not ok, in my opinion, is giving a huge explanation of all the complicate aspects of a position's activities and advanced tactics, because that's the kind of things one can learn from the game. I am perfectly aware that it sucks that the fresh 19 years old general played by someone playing bm since 5 years is insanely more experienced than the 30 years old veteran played by someone who created the account since an year, but I doubt very much you would wash away this with a written tutorial so much. Furthermore, it pushes realms to take in consideration training. In several realms I've been into periods of relative peace or easy war were exploited to assign armies to promising but inexperienced marshals to train them, whereas when it's really important to win perhaps an old retired marshal would take command to avoid the catastrophe. I think gives more deepness to the game.

Just to give a concrete example different from food: writing something such as "dig in requires x hours, where x depends on the size of your men. you can't dig in in vanguard settings. if you are not defending, dig in is useless. dig in is cancelled after a battle, but not a skirmish. units dug in behave in a weird way,if they are not defensive they will leave the camp fortifications very soon in the battle" is fine. Writing "never dig in your men cause often ends up splitting your lines and delivering you defeat" is not ok. That's something you learn with experience and there will certainly be more experienced nobles in your army that will perhaps point it out once you order the dig in, or you may ask the general first if it's a good idea. You can even understand that thinking about it a bit without the need of a tutorial. Things such as military councils work exactly in that way: unexperienced marshals propose orders and ask for input from more experienced people, that commend and provide insight. After a couple months like that he knows more or less everything he could know from the tutorial, but without skipping the interaction part.

Involving newcomers, training them and building a bulk of reliable people that know what they are doing are all, in my opinion, relevant parts of running a realm - running a duchy - running an army. If a realm/duchy/army lacks experienced people because it did not run any kind of proper training program then it's an ic lack that rightfully leads to defeat. It's more complicate than just saying "you won a war because your general plays since longer than mine".

edit: you said a perfect sentence. If you plan on giving people a list of facts on what their chars are likely supposed to know but don't because they game doesn't have a good built in help page, then we definitely agree. But for that reason I believe these tutorials should be moderated and kept essential to explain JUST that. Of course I'm not saying every post giving strategies on the forum should be censored, by the hell no. But if we want some "authorized - sticked - underlined" tutorials, those should be a bit essential. It would make them way more readable than huge essays on how that time general x defeated general y with misdirections.

[cjnodell]

I think that having such a steep learning curve discourages new players. I think that it would be perfectly reasonable to seek guidance in game but this does not always pan out. Most importantly, as I understand it, BattleMaster is intended to be a game in which the guy who spends 20 minutes a day playing is not extremely disadvantaged when competing against a guy who spends 8 hours a day logged in, pouring over the wkik, searching through archived mailing lists, lurking in IRC and so on. It is meant to be a light game that one can succeed at with just a few minutes a turn.

Asking a new player to wait three years before he has finally amassed the knowledge necessary to do something cool is not motivating. Asking a new player to depend upon the support other players with selfish motives to learn stuff their in game character should already know is demotivating. Especially since all of these long standing players are usually pretty busy maneuvering their five characters and spare little time communicating the nuances of the game to a new player who may never stick around.

While I love the depth and layers provided in BattleMaster it can be a huge turn off for new players. When a new player looks through family records and sees that it took years before most players finally managed to secure that one position the new player really wanted, it would make anyone wonder if they really wanted to put around that long. Anything that makes the game more engaging for new players is a great thing in my opinion.

These guides are awesome. Keep them coming!

[Anaris]

I think that having such a steep learning curve discourages new players. I think that it would be perfectly reasonable to seek guidance in game but this does not always pan out. Most importantly, as I understand it, BattleMaster is intended to be a game in which the guy who spends 20 minutes a day playing is not extremely disadvantaged when competing against a guy who spends 8 hours a day logged in, pouring over the wkik, searching through archived mailing lists, lurking in IRC and so on. It is meant to be a light game that one can succeed at with just a few minutes a turn.

It is intended that someone can play the game, and enjoy it as a guy who follows orders and maybe eventually gets a minor lordship, in 20 minutes/day.

It is not expected that you can learn to be an expert at the game in 20 minutes/day, nor that you can get to be actively running realms or making huge complex plans.

If you want to get more out of it, you have to put more into it.

(Note: if this sub-discussion is to be continued, it should be broken out into a separate thread.)

[Peri]

Sorry but I fail to see how "guide on how to be duke" or "guide on how to be ruler" qualifies as to helping newcomers.

I am totally for helping newcomers, as ooc as possible if necessary, but someone that is a general or a banker wouldn't qualify for the "newcomer" adjective anymore. Just Marshals and Lords can still be somewhat useful for those who joined the game since little time.

Furthermore, the position-specific guides as they have been made up to now are meant for people that are already in some position, I don't understand how knowing how being general works would help you becoming general more early. Yes perhaps you can say one thing or two that shows knowledge of the military affairs, but is that really what people looks at when picking a new general?

[cjnodell]

Funny. I swore that I read somewhere when signing up on how Tom once ran a country on a few minutes a day and this was presented as a "This game is cool because you can do so much while having a real life" advertisement. I think I will seek that out now. If BattleMaster is meant to be as Anaris describes then please say so clearly and up front so new players know what they are getting themselves into. As it stands most people coming into the game are likely to have what, from your responses indicate, a very wrong impression of how much time they will have to dedicate to the game to accomplish something beyond blindly following orders...

[Anaris]

Sorry but I fail to see how "guide on how to be duke" or "guide on how to be ruler" qualifies as to helping newcomers.

There are a LOT of people in those positions, or trying to gain those positions, who haven't been in the game as long as us.

You're a "newcomer" to me, Peri, and so's Bedwyr. 

[Anaris]

Funny. I swore that I read somewhere when signing up on how Tom once ran a country on a few minutes a day and this was presented as a "This game is cool because you can do so much while having a real life" advertisement. I think I will seek that out now. If BattleMaster is meant to be as Anaris describes then please say so clearly and up front so new players know what they are getting themselves into. As it stands most people coming into the game are likely to have what, from your responses indicate, a very wrong impression of how much time they will have to dedicate to the game to accomplish something beyond blindly following orders...

First of all, when Tom did that, it was about 9 years ago.  The game was different back then; I don't even know offhand what all the differences are, because a lot of them are cultural, not in the code.  Could he do the same now? I don't know.  Maybe he's just smarter than me (he did build this game mostly by himself, after all!).  Or maybe he'd find that it doesn't work that way anymore.

Second of all, yes, it is possible to be a successful ruler in a few minutes a day.  I've done it myself for significant stretches of time.

However, there are problems with it.

• It's hard to remain ruler if you're not following up on lots of things, and making sure people see how effective you are (especially in a Republic or Democracy).
• If you're not putting in the time to make the big plans and communicate them to the realm, someone else has to be doing so.
• Closely related to #1, it's hard to become a ruler if you're just logging in once a day for 20 minutes or so.

So basically, someone's got to keep the people in the realm moving in the right direction, and if it's not you, you're likely to be replaced by the person who it is.