Author Topic: Advanced Mentoring Concerns  (Read 19951 times)

songqu88@gmail.com

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #30: May 11, 2011, 02:44:16 AM »
I think this advanced mentoring can indeed lead to a destruction of the spirit of discovery that I seem to recall being said even by Tom in the past. Certain things should be found by those willing to seek it out.

The extent of my warm-heartedness stops at telling people what each link does. I think that is what every gamer needs to know to have a fair chance. You don't hide the controls from people. You don't stick someone in a Street Fighter tournament without letting him have access to the combos (Although that was the case even in the 1990s when strategy guides and...Gamefaqs...weren't that common). You don't pit someone up against a Korean Starcraft progamer without letting him know there are such things as hotkeys and what they do. You don't make someone get embarrassed at DDR without first telling him that those arrows under their feet correspond to the flashing arrows that scroll up, and you have to step on the right ones when they pass through the shiny line at the top.

That, I believe, is the end-all for equity in gameplay. You don't ask Valle to give instructions about how he wins SF tournaments, what combos he uses, what counters to use and how to game your opponent into giving you openings. You don't ask Flash about the specific timings he uses in his OSL and MSL matches, or his openings and responses to initial scoutings. You don't...well, is there a strategy for DDR other than step on the right arrows and move your feet like crazy?

The point is, if we really want to do it, then go ahead. That's really going above and beyond true fairness though, as such things beyond mechanics are not equally applicable to all players. If you're going to spoon-feed them, then you may as well throw some mud in the faces of those players who actually made an earnest effort to learn through IC means, and through trial and error.

And I think some people also have trouble understanding what I'm saying. Very clearly, I care for fairness, but to me that means allowing everyone to have the explanations of all publicly accessible game options, meaning those that all normal player characters can have. That is something that all players must use, and always will use. But something that deals with specific strategy, like how to gain influence, how to become a ruler, how to act as a duke: Those I think should be taken very cautiously.

To make an analogy that hopefully makes this all clearer: We can teach an aspiring chess player what moves each piece can make, and how the timing works during tournaments. We should be careful what strategies we teach though, as it is far more educational for the player to actually play matches and try to figure out his own style and from their refine strategies, to make him the optimal player he will be.

That is something I think we haven't really touched on. Mechanics is fairly objective. The options are what they are. They don't look different, nor do they do different things, for anyone. But the playstyles, the strategies, the goals, all are optimized for each player. Giving a guide about that can be as helpful as it is harmful. I think it is far better for those who have a good grasp of mechanics to search for themselves the more complex aspects of BM. And I think that is a good thing too. We don't want to give everything away. Isn't that exactly what the Manual even says?

From the wiki main page:

Official Manual

All pages in this section have been written by contributors and are occasionally reviewed for accuracy. The manual is intentionally incomplete in some details and does not reveal everything, simply because it makes for a more interesting game to discover some stuff on your own.

So with what we're suggesting here, what exactly are we leaving for people to figure out? Their own hearts and souls? Tch, come on...

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #31: May 11, 2011, 06:17:16 AM »
I agree with the advanced mentoring thing, as I have tried over the years to get several of my friends to play, and almost all of them quit after saying the game was boring and too hard to figure out. It is a serious problem, and won't be fixed with the status quo "let them ask somebody". I myself had no help whatsoever finding out what everything did, and so had to do it by experimentation. That isn't very fun, especially when you do something that gets you scolded, even if you didn't know what would happen.

Vellos

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #32: May 11, 2011, 06:47:54 AM »
Artemesia,

Saying that people should "find out for themselves" is nonsense.

Both Peri, myself, and Bedwyr agree that players shouldn't have to find out by themselves about these higher-level things. We just disagree about if they should find out about it from exclusively a mentor IG, or a mentor IG and this guide we're writing.

I think you will find few people who think players should have to try out each button to see what it does rather than just having people help them along and explain it.
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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #33: May 11, 2011, 07:04:51 AM »
Artemesia,

Saying that people should "find out for themselves" is nonsense.

Both Peri, myself, and Bedwyr agree that players shouldn't have to find out by themselves about these higher-level things. We just disagree about if they should find out about it from exclusively a mentor IG, or a mentor IG and this guide we're writing.

I think you will find few people who think players should have to try out each button to see what it does rather than just having people help them along and explain it.

I think that Artemesia is trying to say that players should know the controls and basic usage but they should develop their own way of using all the controls and power at their disposal in more meaningful ways.

I believe, from what I read, that Peri and Matt (Bedwyr) have expressed that players shouldn't have to find out by themselves the controls and what specific things mean/do, not these higher level things that you allude to.  Matt talked about learning from the military academy in his realm, but I think the existence of such an academy should benefit his realm as they are more proactive in helping, teaching, and communicating with their players.

Explaining the buttons is fine and everyone agrees, what we are arguing about is whether advanced ways of using the tools should be considered the same way.
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cjnodell

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #34: May 11, 2011, 07:08:37 AM »
I think Artemesia was all about explaining what the buttons do, just not so hot about laying out stratagems on how to most effectively use those buttons... Just my take on her post though...

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #35: May 11, 2011, 07:19:09 AM »
To make an analogy that hopefully makes this all clearer: We can teach an aspiring chess player what moves each piece can make, and how the timing works during tournaments. We should be careful what strategies we teach though, as it is far more educational for the player to actually play matches and try to figure out his own style and from their refine strategies, to make him the optimal player he will be.

I would like to say that I like the illustrations that Artemesia used very much, and these can certainly be used to help us express our thoughts/opinions more concisely and thoroughly.

Please tell me what you think of the following modified simile from Artemesia:
I believe it should be easy to see the parallels.

  • BattleMaster is like a boardgame, where friends are playing together for good fun
  • The rules of the boardgame should be known to all, so should implications of most basic actions or combination of actions
  • Standard etiquette should be taught to all players to encourage an enjoyable environment
  • Basic strategies should be discussed to encourage further thought and explain interesting aspects of the rules or consequences of actions

If we accept these basic generalizations, we can discuss whether Advanced strategies should also be thoroughly discussed in an open forum for all to access, which is what I believe most are talking about here.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 07:20:40 AM by Foundation »
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Bedwyr

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #36: May 11, 2011, 08:40:55 AM »
I tend to agree that strategies beyond the basic implications of buttons should not be posted unless the game mechanics don't make logical IC sense and so the strategies are determined by OOC matters.  As a for instance, the drafting and holding court on the same day thing.  Your regionlord's advisors would certainly tell you when you informed them of your plans for the day that you needed to draft before holding court, so we should too.  Similarly, we should let everyone know about the fact that militia units below a certain size tend to disappear in fairly short order and the like.

If all nobles would know something, we should post it.  If it has an OOC component, we should post it.
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Peri

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #37: May 11, 2011, 10:24:19 AM »
I agree with the advanced mentoring thing, as I have tried over the years to get several of my friends to play, and almost all of them quit after saying the game was boring and too hard to figure out. It is a serious problem, and won't be fixed with the status quo "let them ask somebody".
I definitely agree, but we are speaking about another thing here. As I said, if someone leaves battlemaster because the game is too hard, I don't think that a guide on how to be a good duke will modify his attitude so much. The post on how to gain influence is the perfect example of a tutorial I completely agree on, and should be developed more. This unless we want to involve ooc people by showing how the end game looks like and potentially hoping they say "ok now it sucks but look at how cool will be when I become a duke!", or hoping that reading guides will shed some light on the stuff people around them say and that leaves them so confused. Perhaps it may work, I don't know.

---

  • BattleMaster is like a boardgame, where friends are playing together for good fun
  • The rules of the boardgame should be known to all, so should implications of most basic actions or combination of actions
  • Standard etiquette should be taught to all players to encourage an enjoyable environment
  • Basic strategies should be discussed to encourage further thought and explain interesting aspects of the rules or consequences of actions

I think I agree here, but there is a big question mark incoming, that has been also mentioned by Gustav. Tom said in several places that he likes the idea that you can make a lot of mistakes by experimenting buttons, and that the game is purposely vague to make these kind of things happen. Many of us stated that this is a source of frustration for newcomers especially because quite often they don't face a forgiving neighborhood that will pat their back and tell them to try again.

Since it seems everyone agrees that we can split tutorial roughly in two parts: how game mechanics/button work, and advanced strategies, we should understand which of the two we deem as appropriate to be put on a forum. Do we assume the noble IC should know what things do, to a certain extent, and explain buttons going against what was perhaps Tom's idea? Or do we rather not explain mechanics but just strategies, in the hope that showing how cool end game is people would get involved, but need to go through mentors and questions to understand how to translate buttons into strategies? I have no answers to these questions, but teaching advanced strategies without going through the basics is a bit weird at least.

Just to present one more question following Vellos' argument: he seem to suggest that avanced mentoring will be too advanced for newcomers to really understand it and become the bm instructions book. So do you think that perhaps having good tutorials to give people insightful and deep instructions on the first steps and then have high end almost impossible to understand tutorials to let them feel how cool would be the end game could help player retention and, at the same time, save the need for interaction to get from "a newcomer that knows his whereabouts" to a "rather new player in a place of power that applies what he read on the tutorial and is thus better than average" status?

edit: just one additional random idea. Whatever tutorial is going to be made, I think it could be interesting to add some kind of "glossary". I don't know if that's a commonly experienced trouble, but I can easily imagine a newcomer not understanding half of the messages that go around because he just doesn't know what word mean. Again, he should ask, but since it's very rare to see this happening, maybe it would help player retention.

« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 10:27:04 AM by Peri »

Indirik

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #38: May 11, 2011, 02:52:16 PM »
Just my two cents:

I think that the mentoring threads should tell you how to do things that a noble would realistically know. How do you post an order to buy food? How do you set up a recurring automated caravan to go buy food from a rural region? How do I found an army, appoint a marshal, and set up a banner for it? What does the "foo" link do?

These are things that a player should know, or that a character would reasonably know how to do, without having to risk clicking the wrong button because the description for it is not clear or the procedure too complex.
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Vellos

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #39: May 11, 2011, 06:23:34 PM »
  • BattleMaster is like a boardgame, where friends are playing together for good fun
  • The rules of the boardgame should be known to all, so should implications of most basic actions or combination of actions
  • Standard etiquette should be taught to all players to encourage an enjoyable environment
  • Basic strategies should be discussed to encourage further thought and explain interesting aspects of the rules or consequences of actions

No.

1. BM is not like a boardgame. BM does not end, and you do not win. You don't get to try out strategies, fail, finish the game, and come back again. When you fail because you didn't grasp the political magnitude of a rebellion or of being too chatty and annoying in a realm, and you get banned, it's on your family's record forever. When you succeed and get a post, it's on your family record forever, and players will bias against or for your characters based on that.

2. I agree with two, especially "implications of most basic actions." Except one thing. I don't believe there are more or less basic actions. I have been playing this game for years, and I still don't understand line settings at all. When I've played general characters, I defer line settings to marshals, vice marshals, military councils, etc. I still don't get the intricacies of planning coordinated moves, delaying, field camping, etc. I consider those to be pretty advanced for me, whereas I see the trade system as very basic and intuitive. Many players disagree. If, however, you mean basic as "actions available to all characters," you still don't solve your problem: different classes have widely diverging actions available. Moreover, perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I generally don't think tutorials should stop at a lordship. I can and have played many council posts on 20 minutes a day. That is normal. I will venture a guess that well over half of the current BM players have held a post at some point. Holding positions is normal, it is not holding positions that is abnormal for a player.

3. Standard etiquette? What on earth does that mean? I consider it standard etiquette to teach other people how to play the game.

4. I don't just teach basic strategies. When I play Diplomacy with friends, I talk about past games. I explain interesting tactics that have been used in the past. I discuss stalemate lines, common diplomatic arrangements, opening moves, etc. Frankly, I'm not great at chess. I don't enjoy playing against a champion chess player. I am good at Diplomacy, so I like playing it against tournament players, because I understand what is happening. Because we can recognize strategies and see not only that we were defeated but also how we were defeated.

However, I return to my first point: using a boardgame analogy is fundamentally flawed. The goal of a boardgame is, usually, to win and finish the game. You cannot win Battlemaster. You play. And you keep playing. And you keep playing. And it's boring to play alongside people who don't know what they're doing.

Again, I do not understand why anyone thinks we should hide from other players that there are strategies like the ones I listed in the trade systems article. Why should this be secret knowledge?

Ya'll say people should find out for themselves: so, what, not even IG mentors? That's lunacy! I absolutely do not want somebody to find out how secessions work by seceding from a realm I'm in! No, people have to tell them. And I get no satisfaction from politically outmaneuvering a character because the player behind it didn't realize that his automatic trade offer could be exploited for arbitrage with a neighboring city. I'd like him to at least know that such a thing is possible, and understand how such a thing might be done. If he still fails to defend himself  or miscalculates which strategy to use, cool, my character outwitted the other character.

But this idea that it's fair play for us to deploy strategies the existence of which is unknown to other players does not strike me as suitable for a game we think of as playing with friends.

And, frankly, just explaining game mechanics is not enough. I can explain pricing mechanics for trade all day long and still not have anyone recognize the political strategies therein, especially when overbearing dukes and bankers just tell them "Set it up automatic and do what I say." Game mechanics teaching becomes a means of political control wherein lords never learn to manage their own food supplies to their advantage because older players find it inconvenient for their underlings to realize they have any power.

This is not hypothetical, by the way. I've had to re-teach two players in Terran how to manage food because, in their previous realms, their bankers had told them to just set up automatic sales, and everything would be handled for them. They were told that sending out caravans is for dukes, and never really necessary for lords.

If that was an IC thing, that'd be fine. But it's not. That's an IC political deployment of OOC knowledge that those players should have been taught. But they weren't. Because teaching players strategies by which they can undermine the teacher is rarely advantageous.
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songqu88@gmail.com

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #40: May 11, 2011, 06:35:16 PM »
In truth I am even hesitant to teach players all the mechanics. But I would compromise if it makes for a better playerbase in the future.

But where I will not compromise is the apparent naivety regarding teaching players all the subtle tricks of the trade. What do you think will happen when you teach people how to gain influence and how to become a duke/council member?

I will tell you what will happen: Gradually the newer playerbase will become more accustomed to such "easy answers", and simply go ahead and follow some forum steps to success. When that happens this game becomes some sort of hollow sequence of follow the steps to your goals.

I do not mean that there will be absolutely no creativity involved. But when you wave an easy solution in front of someone, it is very tempting. Almost all of us have been students at some point. How many of us peeked at the answer sheets when doing homework if they were available? On practice exams that had the answers following each question, how many of us looked ahead if we got a little stuck or unsure about how to proceed?

The point is that if we provide the "solution" too clearly and too easily, then people will just get even lazier than they already are. If they are so interested in gaining some position, let them ask people who have those positions how they got them. Let them work for a change, rather than make us do all the work. If some existing lords/dukes/council members are tight-lipped about how, then go to another realm that's more generous. If no one does it, then I'm sorry, but tough break there. That, however, is most likely not the case.

Now I think we are going on about what exactly teaching people how to play the game means. That might turn into a long discussion.

Vellos

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #41: May 11, 2011, 07:22:37 PM »
Almost all of us have been students at some point. How many of us peeked at the answer sheets when doing homework if they were available? On practice exams that had the answers following each question, how many of us looked ahead if we got a little stuck or unsure about how to proceed?

And when I took a higher-level calc class that did not provide the homework answers, I dropped it after a week.

And when I took a stats class that did not provide the homework answers, I attempted to drop it, until I realized it was necessary for my major.

The reason answers are put in the back is because teachers have realized over time that without them, students don't learn as well, and they fail.
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songqu88@gmail.com

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #42: May 11, 2011, 07:33:19 PM »
And that's where we find the difference between students worth teaching and those who we might advise into other areas of interest.

Vellos, you should really make up your mind about what sort of game you consider BM. On one hand you discounted Foundation's board game analogy, when the actual point of that was to illustrate BM as a friendly non-competitive game. Rather, you thought it was more competitive. Which one is the correct view isn't my point to argue here.

Now, if we're going by competitive terms, it is fair to provide the rules that apply to everyone, yes. But is it fair to provide everyone with the things that some people must put in a lot more effort to achieve? Are you saying, basically, that by analogy we should be teaching everyone in a post-undergraduate school medicine? That's simply crazy. For one, we know for a fact that some people just aren't cut out for it. Now, granted, real life is a lot more serious, but in BM still shouldn't be a peachy happy world by default.

It is no secret that some, perhaps even a majority, are not cut out for being lords, dukes, council members. Providing too much information leads us to allow too many fakers to pretend more effectively, while in the end being just as incompetent. Only danger here is that sometimes the stupidity realization comes too late.

cjnodell

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #43: May 11, 2011, 07:47:25 PM »
I am not sure what the problem is if someone manages to secure a position of power and then be unsuccessful... Why is this a bad thing? Sure it can be inconvenient, or even disastrous for the realm or certain characters but this is a game and I am not sure if such failings would be much more than flavor. The medieval world was full of lords and dukes and kings that both totally rocked and really sucked. A lot of times those above did not have a lot of say as to whether their vessels were competent or not. Of course they would seek to have them replaced or even find a way rid themselves of the fool and collect all the resources for himself, but that sounds like a fun situation to me, not something to be avoided.

Besides, being taught or having access to guides on advanced topics does not make one good at the material. Years ago, when I was studying for my CCNA, I worked with a variety of people. We were all given good materials and excellent instruction on what I would consider to be advanced topics. Simple fact was that despite this some did well and others flopped. Not only that, in the end even those who mastered the material presented were left seeking more and realized that there was so much more that was not covered in the canned package delivered to us.

The idea that having a tutorial like the one Vellos pot together on trade would unbalance the game does not add up to me. Some will greatly benefit, others will not get it at all and still more will think they get it but won't.

The idea that tutorials on advanced topics and strategies will lessen in game communication also fails to make sense to me. Since reading Vellos' tutorial on trade I have had a lot of questions pop up. It has made me want to find Character in the game that could expound on this and teach me more. It has not made me want to clam up and cease to seek help in game.

songqu88@gmail.com

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Re: Advanced Mentoring Concerns
« Reply #44: May 11, 2011, 08:01:33 PM »
You may be an exception then. The more common response will probably be that the player goes to the forum to find his answers. Failing that, he will then finally be compelled to post in the forums: "Help me! How does X work!" And then, depending on who responds, the answer might be "Go ask that in-game", or "This is how it works". In the latter case, there, it's done, you just turned the forum into the primary means of gaining anything in the game. In the former case, the reactions to that can be among two major categories: 1. Anger 2. Compliance

The first is pretty natural among people nowadays in an online environment. They don't get their instant gratification, they get angry. Such reactions might be "Why are you such a purist?" "What are you, the IC police?" "If you're not gonna tell me then stfu!", etc.

The second is the preferred reaction, in that the player actually does go ask in-game about it. But you gotta admit, it's far more likely to have a good and prompt response on the forum than in-game. This is because the forums are mostly populated by the active and experienced players, whereas activity is unpredictable at best in-game. Guess what most people would prefer.