Author Topic: Farronite-Aslyon Merger  (Read 13544 times)

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Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Topic Start: December 21, 2013, 09:02:26 PM »
Summary:Farronite-Aslyon Merger
Violation:Friendly Realm Merger
World:Dwilight
Complainer:Jordan Dishman
About:Khari

Full Complaint Text:
I'm not sure of the specifics, but Duke Khari Kye has joined Aslyon, leaving Farronite with a single city. I suppose so long as Farronite can continue as a one region realm it wouldn't be a realm merger, but it doesn't seem feasible.

Dishman

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #1: December 21, 2013, 09:12:47 PM »
As a side note, I tried to figure out more about what happened in-game, but was directed here. I haven't really paid attention to the area enough to know much background. There are quite a few regions under Duke Khari, so I could imagine some of them splitting off to rejoin Farronite for a more functional realm.
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Glaumring the Fox

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #2: December 21, 2013, 10:10:25 PM »
Seriously? The duchy has been set up that way for ages.
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dustole

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #3: December 22, 2013, 12:03:31 AM »
I dunno, its iffy.  Terran thing was ruled a non merger by 1 vote and that was essentially because Terran was losing/had lost its war.  Farronite had no conflict.  They had signed a rather beneficial treaty with Astrum and they got out of the war.  Internal political conflict would be a great reason for such actions.  An IG source tells me there was a power struggle in the realm.   I have not verified it.

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Glaumring the Fox

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #4: December 22, 2013, 06:33:18 AM »
Its only iffy because it was Asylon involved... Anyways I am done replying or adding to this conversation I just think its typical of this server to act like this.  :-[
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Stabbity

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #5: December 22, 2013, 06:58:28 AM »
I dunno, its iffy.  Terran thing was ruled a non merger by 1 vote and that was essentially because Terran was losing/had lost its war.  Farronite had no conflict.  They had signed a rather beneficial treaty with Astrum and they got out of the war.  Internal political conflict would be a great reason for such actions.  An IG source tells me there was a power struggle in the realm.   I have not verified it.

The Terran thing involved all of the realms regions. This does not. See the Solaria/Luria Nova realm merger case. This fits into the first allegiance change involved in that, and yes, while it screwed the original realm, it was not ruled a realm merger. The second city joining was, because that consisted of the entire realm moving. You cannot have a realm merger without the entirety of the realm merging. In no way did the Farronite Republic and Asylon become a singular entity on equal terms. A single (albeit powerful) Duchess changed allegiance. The Farronite Republic still exists as a realm, how could a realm merger take place if one of the two realms in question continues to exist?

There is no question in this case.
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Indirik

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #6: December 22, 2013, 05:03:53 PM »
Per game mechanics, barring a bug, it is impossible to merge every region into another realm. You have to leave one city behind. What happened here is that every region of a realm merged with another realm, to the extent possible by mechanics. (Again excepting bug abuse.) The realms involved are friendly. They were in fact strong allies.  The merger provides a big advantage in a war to the realm to which received the regions; economically, militarily, and geographically.

What you have here are two regions who have historically been strong friends and allies.  They are both strong, viable realms. Neither one is under any obvious external pressure or duress. The action taken merges the two realms, providing a large and obvious advantage to the realm that received the regions. The realms were merged to the maximum extent possible, limited by game mechanics. The remaining region is a city that cannot feed itself, and can only exist by receiving food from the realm to which all its regions moved.

Whether or not there were any IC reasons for the merger is irrelevant. This is an ooc rule which limits the actions of players for ooc reasons. (Besides, anyone with two braincells to rub together can always come with an IC reason to do anything they want. )

Imo, this violates the realm merger rule to the maximum extent possible without deliberate exploitation of a bug. Even if the player that did it did not intend it that way, That's how it ended up.
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Glaumring the Fox

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #7: December 22, 2013, 08:30:42 PM »
I dont think Asylon and the Farronite nobles should be punished for the actions of one noble. I dont actually see that any of us have done any wrong except step on Astrum.

Perhaps the ability for Duchies to seperate and join other realms should be taken out if it causes so many problems, or perhaps only a certain amount of duchies can cede at a time. We didnt write the code or make the rules but it seems when it benefits Astrum there is no issue, let us not forget Kabrinskias realm merger.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2013, 08:33:41 PM by Glaumring the Fox »
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dustole

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #8: December 22, 2013, 10:47:39 PM »
let us not forget Kabrinskias realm merger.


Which was ruled as illegal.
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Indirik

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #9: December 22, 2013, 11:06:45 PM »
I dont think Asylon and the Farronite nobles should be punished for the actions of one noble. I dont actually see that any of us have done any wrong except step on Astrum.

Perhaps the ability for Duchies to seperate and join other realms should be taken out if it causes so many problems, or perhaps only a certain amount of duchies can cede at a time. We didnt write the code or make the rules but it seems when it benefits Astrum there is no issue, let us not forget Kabrinskias realm merger.
1. Who said an entire realm should be punished, even if this is ruled as illegal?
2. You are not the one accused of doing anything wrong. Even if this is ruled as an illegal realm merger, nothing will happen to you.
3. As dustole says, the kabrinskia merger was ruled as illegal.
4. I agree that the current duchy system makes this kind of thing too easy. It was not possible under the old system. If I could think of any specific mechanic that would prevent realm mergers, and not unduly create artificial restrictions, I would propose them. If you can think of any, please do.
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vonGenf

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #10: December 23, 2013, 01:23:21 AM »
4. I agree that the current duchy system makes this kind of thing too easy. It was not possible under the old system.

What exactly prevented this in the old system? I can't access the political map from the wiki right now, but FR was a two-city realm (Via and Golden Farrow), right? Then all the rurals could swear allegiance to the non-capital city in the old system too.

I would be a big fan of a system which would remove the possibility that clicking a button in game results in a forbidden result.
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Vita

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #11: December 23, 2013, 01:53:55 AM »
Asylon is a one city realm that has been, for some months now, composed of two duchies. One full of rurals under Khari and one city duchy. To make it clear, there was no creation of the rural duchy for the purpose of changing allegiance/realm merger, but a pre-existing two duchy system that allowed one duchess to leave a city-state behind. Don't let your rurals get so powerful next time ;)

Glaumring the Fox

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #12: December 23, 2013, 03:36:18 AM »
What exactly prevented this in the old system? I can't access the political map from the wiki right now, but FR was a two-city realm (Via and Golden Farrow), right? Then all the rurals could swear allegiance to the non-capital city in the old system too.

I would be a big fan of a system which would remove the possibility that clicking a button in game results in a forbidden result.

FR has never owned Via, its Asylons capital. FR was a one city realm.
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Glaumring the Fox

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #13: December 23, 2013, 03:37:17 AM »
Asylon is a one city realm that has been, for some months now, composed of two duchies. One full of rurals under Khari and one city duchy. To make it clear, there was no creation of the rural duchy for the purpose of changing allegiance/realm merger, but a pre-existing two duchy system that allowed one duchess to leave a city-state behind. Don't let your rurals get so powerful next time ;)

Asylon is not a one city realm...
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Glaumring the Fox

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #14: December 23, 2013, 03:38:02 AM »
1. Who said an entire realm should be punished, even if this is ruled as illegal?
2. You are not the one accused of doing anything wrong. Even if this is ruled as an illegal realm merger, nothing will happen to you.
3. As dustole says, the kabrinskia merger was ruled as illegal.
4. I agree that the current duchy system makes this kind of thing too easy. It was not possible under the old system. If I could think of any specific mechanic that would prevent realm mergers, and not unduly create artificial restrictions, I would propose them. If you can think of any, please do.

Thankyou for the clarity.
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