Author Topic: Farronite-Aslyon Merger  (Read 49467 times)

Anaris

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #75: December 31, 2013, 09:27:12 PM »
I believe Buffakill's quote is extremely relevant, particularly this portion:

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...it was not an agreed act of cooperation between two parties.

Good find.
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Chenier

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #76: January 01, 2014, 01:11:58 AM »
Or, you know:

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"hey, as one realm we would have better game mechanics on our side"

Which is the main reason I'm inclined to dismiss the case, even though I don't consider pertinent most of the defense's arguments.
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Indirik

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #77: January 02, 2014, 06:07:23 PM »
Quote
...it was not an agreed act of cooperation between two parties.

Good find.
That is, indeed, a good catch. It does beg the question, though: Why is it OK to swap and then get permission, but not get permission then swap?

Apparently this is bad:
Duke: "Can I swap to you?"
Ruler "Sure!"
Duke: *swap*

But this good?
Duke: *swap*
Duke: "Is this good with you?"
Ruler "Sure!"

Personally, I don't see any meaningful distinction between the two. Yet we're supposed to consider one as good, and the other bad? ???
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Sypher

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #78: January 03, 2014, 06:22:57 AM »
From reading Tom's post quoted by Buffakill, wouldn't the two parties be the two rulers? It seems to me like the restriction is against the rulers conspiring to combine their two realms.

Buffalkill

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #79: January 03, 2014, 08:17:30 AM »
Good find.
That is, indeed, a good catch. It does beg the question, though: Why is it OK to swap and then get permission, but not get permission then swap?

[...]

Personally, I don't see any meaningful distinction between the two. Yet we're supposed to consider one as good, and the other bad? ???


What I took away from Tom's post is that if there's no IR violation, it's better to let a few people get away with it than to aggressively pursue possible infractions. Players should police themselves, and the rule should rarely (if ever) require enforcement, except in cases where the abuse is so patent and unambiguous as to preclude any discussion. Since there is room for discussion in this case, the defendant should get the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully the spirit of fairplay is something that all players will take to heart.

Indirik

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #80: January 03, 2014, 06:13:19 PM »
What I took away from Tom's post is that if there's no IR violation, it's better to let a few people get away with it than to aggressively pursue possible infractions.
If this were the intent of the rules, then we wouldn't need any rules other than the IRs. After all, if only IR violations can be acted on, then why have any other rules at all?

Quote
Players should police themselves, and the rule should rarely (if ever) require enforcement, except in cases where the abuse is so patent and unambiguous as to preclude any discussion. Since there is room for discussion in this case, the defendant should get the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully the spirit of fairplay is something that all players will take to heart.
That's a good theory. However, player-based enforcement in MMORPGs simply does not work. It's been tried many times in many games. There are too many people willing to look the other way, to conspire, who see things differently, or who just don't care. There must be some group in charge of investigation and enforcement, to make sure that everyone stays honest.
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Buffalkill

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #81: January 03, 2014, 11:04:38 PM »
If this were the intent of the rules, then we wouldn't need any rules other than the IRs. After all, if only IR violations can be acted on, then why have any other rules at all?
Over-enforcement of the rules has just as much potential to ruin the game as rule-breaking does. The level of enforcement should be tempered according to the rule that's being invoked. At one end, the IRs are enforced most aggressively because those violations are the most harmful, the most immediate, and are fairly unambiguous. At the other end, there are policies like "Nobles are to treat commoners poorly (with disgust) and commoners are to treat nobility respectfully (with fear)," which I assume should never be seriously enforced.


That's a good theory. However, player-based enforcement in MMORPGs simply does not work. It's been tried many times in many games. There are too many people willing to look the other way, to conspire, who see things differently, or who just don't care. There must be some group in charge of investigation and enforcement, to make sure that everyone stays honest.
In this case, there hasn't been any evidence of the sort of collusion that's being alleged, only speculation, and there's hasn't been any evidence of harm.


Velax

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #82: January 04, 2014, 01:00:18 AM »
Might be time for an actual Magistrate decision on this. It's been, what, two weeks now.

cenrae

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #83: January 04, 2014, 01:23:38 AM »
I was thinking the same thing.
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Chenier

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #84: January 07, 2014, 06:50:29 PM »
From reading Tom's post quoted by Buffakill, wouldn't the two parties be the two rulers? It seems to me like the restriction is against the rulers conspiring to combine their two realms.

That's pretty much my take on it.
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Geronus

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #85: January 16, 2014, 04:48:08 AM »
Might be time for an actual Magistrate decision on this. It's been, what, two weeks now.

As things stand, the verdict is guilty by a 3-2 vote, but no one has taken the lead in writing a verdict or splitting the difference in the guilty votes (as the three votes for guilty are all for different results). I voted Not Guilty, so I don't feel I should be the one writing the verdict in this case if Guilty is to be the end result.

Honestly without Vellos or I being deeply involved, I'm not sure who is up to actually managing the Magistrate cases... Tom had said quite a while ago that he intended to end the Magistrate experiment but it seems apparent that the mechanics are still there for people to open cases.

Eduardo Almighty

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #86: January 17, 2014, 04:18:39 PM »
So... guilty... what will happen now? I'm eager to know.
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D`Este

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #87: January 17, 2014, 04:41:01 PM »
Honestly, it has taken this long that we should wonder if a verdict should be given.

Eirikr

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #88: January 17, 2014, 05:02:58 PM »
A verdict should be given because there was a case opened and a record must be generated. The actions, however, may just not have any impact.

Gustav Kuriga

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Re: Farronite-Aslyon Merger
« Reply #89: January 17, 2014, 08:18:43 PM »
I personally feel that the verdict was wrong. The duchy was already setup in the current manner long before any thought of moving it from one realm to the other was occurring. It wasn't like they suddenly conspired to have all the lords join a single duchy and then move it to Asylon, which would be a merger of the kind that isn't allowed. So in all practicality, blaming the duchess for what duchy the lords happened to have their region in is kind of ludicrous.