Wounds worsening or mechanics harassing players.

[pcw27]

I remember Tom really liking a version of it but I don't know if he implemented it.

[Eirikr]

Several people, myself included, argued that this would be a good way of recycling the subclass, given how the reforms made to it have rendred it... handicapped.

I think think the dev team ever really commented on the idea, though.

I thought there was a comment in one of the mortality threads about it being not a priority because Infils aren't necessarily broken, just require skill and caution.

[Chenier]

I thought there was a comment in one of the mortality threads about it being not a priority because Infils aren't necessarily broken, just require skill and caution.

A subclass that requires forever in training and mountains of gold in order to have mediocre odds of inflicting minimal damage is most definately broken. A subclass that require the presence of a lot of other nobles in order to succeed in its purpose of being secret, through plausible deniability, yet which ends up having minimal chances of success as soon as there are but a few other troop leaders present, is most definately broken.

Skill and caution tells one to simply not pick that subclass.

[Penchant]

A subclass that requires forever in training and mountains of gold in order to have mediocre odds of inflicting minimal damage is most definately broken. A subclass that require the presence of a lot of other nobles in order to succeed in its purpose of being secret, through plausible deniability, yet which ends up having minimal chances of success as soon as there are but a few other troop leaders present, is most definately broken.

Skill and caution tells one to simply not pick that subclass.

If you listened to others that actively play infiltrators, you would know that's not true. Indirik actually trained his infil through field training (actually doing stuff) and I see successful infil attacks on Atamara all the time, where often people aren't sure who did it. Could there certainly be infil actions that aren't so risky? Yes, but the class isn't broken and I am aware of the rarity of field training an infil.

[Chenier]

If you listened to others that actively play infiltrators, you would know that's not true. Indirik actually trained his infil through field training (actually doing stuff) and I see successful infil attacks on Atamara all the time, where often people aren't sure who did it. Could there certainly be infil actions that aren't so risky? Yes, but the class isn't broken and I am aware of the rarity of field training an infil.

Of all the infil actions I've witnessed, since they ceased to be invisible, I only had doubts for maybe 5-2% of the cases, and even in those I pretty much always had it down to two potential culprits. As soon as you get caught ONCE, and banned for it, it's own your family history, at which point it's like walking around with a huge sign saying "HEY GUYS, BTW, I'M AN INFILTRATOR!"

And of all the successful infil actions I've witnissed, I don't think a single one proved to be anything more than an annoyance. The wounds usually don't matter, and the rest of the actions usually aren't noticeable either.

[Penchant]

Of all the infil actions I've witnessed, since they ceased to be invisible, I only had doubts for maybe 5-2% of the cases, and even in those I pretty much always had it down to two potential culprits. As soon as you get caught ONCE, and banned for it, it's own your family history, at which point it's like walking around with a huge sign saying "HEY GUYS, BTW, I'M AN INFILTRATOR!"

I am not going to argue about the percentage of doubtful cases because neither have any real data on it. As to it usually being between two people, two is all you need because it creates doubt. As to family history giving everyone away that's not true. Don't try and tell me you look at everyone's family page and keep list of infiltrators. People know who the infiltrators are because they build up notoriety, but that's not bad because I have heard of times of notorious infils being blamed when really it was a younger infil that was unknown to be an infil.

And of all the successful infil actions I've witnissed, I don't think a single one proved to be anything more than an annoyance. The wounds usually don't matter, and the rest of the actions usually aren't noticeable either.

It's very rare for some random knight to be attacked, it's rulers, generals, marshals, dukes, margraves, and on rare occasion priests being attacked all due to the power they hold and stopping them from using their power, most often communication, or simply as an attack by a realm or (rarer) a religion/guild. I know of an infil who once attacked CE's military leadership and IIRC, took out two marshals and the general within a turn or two, severely hurting CE's ability to lead their military for a short time. Some times it's a margrave to take them out before a siege so they can't recruit militia.

[Indirik]

FWIW: it wasn't me that field trained an infiltrator. I think that was delegro. My infil academy trained all the way to 80/80 before doing anything.

[Penchant]

FWIW: it wasn't me that field trained an infiltrator. I think that was delegro. My infil academy trained all the way to 80/80 before doing anything.

My apologies on getting the name wrong, I recalled someone saying they did that and thought it was you for whatever reason.

[Chenier]

Infiltrator action done?

Option 1: infiltrator caught, identity revealed, banishment or worse to be given in a few turns
Option 2: infiltrator free, identity revealed.
Option 3: infiltrator free, identity not revealed, proceed:
Step 1: Look at the nobles present in said region
Step 2: Sort nobles according to which realms they belong to
Step 3: Look up the family histories of nobles, starting by those without units and those of enemy realms and moving down the list towards the less likely. Say "bingo" every time you spot "banned by blablabla for being a lowly saboteur"

I don't "keep a list" of infiltrators. I don't recall the last time an infiltrator action was done in a region with more than 6 nobles without his identity being revealed automatically. Looking up the family histories really doesn't take any time at all.

Besides, what's plausible deniability good for anyways? Infiltrator actions don't increase skill when working in friendly regions, so you have to work in enemy lands. Infiltrator or not, you will be treated as an enemy there regardless. And if you aren't in enemy lands, and you are trying to cause a scandal? I've personally had my characters targetted by realm-mates and allies on various occasions. I never made a fuss about it unless it was my intent to do so anyways. A rogue infil isn't worth making diplomacy on. In reality, the plausibility is more a weapon of the attacked than the attacker: it gives one a lot of range to falsely accuse people he wants to frame. After all, usually the infils don't go around shouting "Hey, no, I was the one who attacked you!"

The whole "plausible deniability" shenenigans is really pointless.

[Stabbity]

Infiltrator action done?

Option 1: infiltrator caught, identity revealed, banishment or worse to be given in a few turns
Option 2: infiltrator free, identity revealed.
Option 3: infiltrator free, identity not revealed, proceed:
Step 1: Look at the nobles present in said region
Step 2: Sort nobles according to which realms they belong to
Step 3: Look up the family histories of nobles, starting by those without units and those of enemy realms and moving down the list towards the less likely. Say "bingo" every time you spot "banned by blablabla for being a lowly saboteur"

I don't "keep a list" of infiltrators. I don't recall the last time an infiltrator action was done in a region with more than 6 nobles without his identity being revealed automatically. Looking up the family histories really doesn't take any time at all.

Besides, what's plausible deniability good for anyways? Infiltrator actions don't increase skill when working in friendly regions, so you have to work in enemy lands. Infiltrator or not, you will be treated as an enemy there regardless. And if you aren't in enemy lands, and you are trying to cause a scandal? I've personally had my characters targetted by realm-mates and allies on various occasions. I never made a fuss about it unless it was my intent to do so anyways. A rogue infil isn't worth making diplomacy on. In reality, the plausibility is more a weapon of the attacked than the attacker: it gives one a lot of range to falsely accuse people he wants to frame. After all, usually the infils don't go around shouting "Hey, no, I was the one who attacked you!"

The whole "plausible deniability" shenenigans is really pointless.

Or you know, you be smart about your assassination and do one of these:

option 1: wait until right before turn change and leave the region
option 2: only assassinate nobles after large battles to keep them from fleeing with their units, allowing your army to stay and massacre them
option 3: carry a scroll of teleport or 12.

[Blue Star]

Are you all yapping about infiltrators again? Think your in the wrong thread *coughs*

Note* Best to be a infiltrator who is sponsored by your realm and do activities to benefit it, at least till that day arrives and you smote some noble who annoyed you. Eh if you get revealed just escape, if you have enough skill it appears to you ever so often, however, until then it's a roll of the dice. Plus stabbing nobles if ever so fun.