Author Topic: Decay of infrastructure from lack of population  (Read 23563 times)

songqu88@gmail.com

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #15: May 09, 2011, 11:08:09 PM »
Well, one consideration is that the recruitment centers aren't the same in both regions. Yes, technically they're the "same" in terms of cost and size. But if we're talking about whether it makes sense, one would think design, material, space, maintenance, would differ. You're talking about different environments here, where people have different requirements to keep the region actually working, different exposures to the buildings. For example, in a rural region you might have problems with lots of animals relieving themselves next to the RC, or maybe those tenacious ivy plants keep climbing up the walls. In a city, you instead have those darn vandals thinking they're cool by inscribing their names on the walls using a hammer and chisel, or homeless commoners relieving themselves next to the RC.

So...why does it work in a rural and not a city? Because they are inherently different, even if not in terms of game mechanics. Game mechanics just uses the population, so it seems. And it makes sense that if you can fill up a rural region with 5000 people, that means you have exactly enough, or perhaps slightly more, people who actually can maintain RCs and such buildings. In a city, you get 5000 people, most of whom must fill in the bare minimum to keep the city running. The rest? Who knows what they are. You wouldn't trust a barber to fix the walls of your RC, would you? That's the point I think. Rather than do the rather difficult task of tracking down just what each peasant in your city does, it uses probabilities. At that percentage of total population, then it is likely that you have enough masons, builders, architects, thatchers, whatever, to maintain your infrastructure. Before that, there is a low probability of having the right people, and so the game just considers it as you don't have them, and you suffer decay.

Galvez

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #16: May 09, 2011, 11:11:24 PM »
It would make sense that a city can only hold level 1 RCs when it's small, and can hold bigger and bigger RC's when they get bigger. It doesn't make sense that the lvl 1 RC falls apart only because there is room left in the city.
That is the point I am trying to make. And restricting the size of RC's might be a good alternative.
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Anaris

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #17: May 09, 2011, 11:50:13 PM »
Still, I think it would make sense if a region with 5'000 commoners could fitted out like a rural region with max 5'000 peasants. It doesn't matter if there is room for 95'000 commoners in the city.

Thing is, when you've got the 5000 people in a city built for 95000, they're not all concentrated in one part of the city.  They're spread out all around it, trying to keep as much of it running as they can.

So yeah, maybe we could make it so you could keep an RC going in a city without enough population to normally sustain it—but the price for that is that you can't cash bonds.  Or you can't actually trade any food, because the warehouse managers were conscripted to help maintain the RC.  Or the food all rots, because the people trying to maintain the warehouse itself were pressed into service, and now the warehouse has fallen down.

You see, it's just not that simple.

The one change that would make some sense—and we're considering something like it as part of a near-future feature—would be letting you allocate some extra gold to repairs, so you make less money, but at least your RC doesn't fall down. 

Yet.
Timothy Collett

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Galvez

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #18: May 10, 2011, 12:52:43 PM »
If population is the problem, I can not get to it with some common sense that the building would deteriorate so fast that it is not usable any more. The rate at which you will train soldiers is already reduced due to lowered population, and additional to that the buildings will decay as well. Then I would say as well, restrict the amount of RC's (and there level) and/or workshops you can build. To allocate extra gold for repairs would help greatly, but is does not take away that the buildings deteriorate just too fast, and the cost for repairs and maintenance would be insanely high. That's just my opinion.

But for the moment, Anaris, do you know at what population/production can we successfully construct workshops and RC's without having to fear that the gold will be wasted?
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Anaris

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #19: May 10, 2011, 03:08:33 PM »
If population is the problem, I can not get to it with some common sense that the building would deteriorate so fast that it is not usable any more. The rate at which you will train soldiers is already reduced due to lowered population, and additional to that the buildings will decay as well. Then I would say as well, restrict the amount of RC's (and there level) and/or workshops you can build. To allocate extra gold for repairs would help greatly, but is does not take away that the buildings deteriorate just too fast, and the cost for repairs and maintenance would be insanely high. That's just my opinion.

This game's philosophy is not to hold your hand, but rather to give you enough rope to hang yourself.  If you want to build RCs when they're just going to fall down, that's your problem.

Quote
But for the moment, Anaris, do you know at what population/production can we successfully construct workshops and RC's without having to fear that the gold will be wasted?

Not offhand, I'm afraid.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

songqu88@gmail.com

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #20: May 10, 2011, 03:34:31 PM »
Haha, sure, don't believe Artemesia when he says the same thing Anaris basically said.  ::)

Vellos

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #21: May 10, 2011, 06:44:42 PM »
Haha, sure, don't believe Artemesia when he says the same thing Anaris basically said.  ::)

You are a dubious source.

And aligned with the Zuma. Even OOC.
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Indirik

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #22: May 10, 2011, 07:25:42 PM »
Quote from: Vellos
As was noted, if you bump it up to level 2, you should be fine, you just have to keep it at level 2. As soon as it downgrades, upgrade it again.
We do not have the gold for such continues investments, and I am certain that Hireshmont shouldn't want to finance that for us as well.
That's what we had to do in Astrum. Several of our RCs broke down from size 2 to 1, and we built them back up to keep them around. Same with the smithies, too. We lost at least 2 in Libidizedd before the production grew enough to sustain one.

The lord can see the damage level of buildings. So have the lord check it every now and then. Keep track of how fast they deteriorate, so you know when to bump them up to lvl 2. It's basically the same thing as ordering your population to maintain building while producing less gold. The end results are the same: A level 1 center that sticks around, and less gold in your pocket.
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songqu88@gmail.com

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #23: May 10, 2011, 08:09:43 PM »
You are a dubious source.

And aligned with the Zuma. Even OOC.

That is a mighty big assumption you're making there, and a rather incorrect one. Now when have I ever been misleading on mechanics?

Galvez

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #24: May 10, 2011, 10:46:10 PM »
This game's philosophy is not to hold your hand, but rather to give you enough rope to hang yourself.  If you want to build RCs when they're just going to fall down, that's your problem.

Not offhand, I'm afraid.
I thank you for that stimulating answer. But it says nothing about how it is possible the centres decay when they are barely used.
"Men willingly believe what they wish." - Julius Caesar

songqu88@gmail.com

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #25: May 10, 2011, 10:55:03 PM »
You know, if you would like to make a feature request about some way to offset RC and other facility decay when the requisite population numbers are not reached, then please by all means. Continuing to go on this line in this thread will probably end in...one way. Someone with authority will basically say "That's just the way it is. I'm not going to change it. End of story."

It has happened before, please don't make me dig up examples in the old Dlist archives...But yeah *points to the Feature Requests board*

Galvez

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #26: May 11, 2011, 01:29:00 AM »
If anyone could tell me why and how the current system works as it does, I might be able to come up with an alternative. I can only conclude at the moment that it makes little sense. And some have been so kind to explain how we can circumvent game mechanics, yet when the latest is required, I believe there is something wrong.
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songqu88@gmail.com

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #27: May 11, 2011, 01:33:52 AM »
Uh, I think it's been made pretty clear, unless there's something I'm reading wrong. Low population below a certain point, possibly a percentage of the maximum population, will lead to decay.

That's the end explanation in terms of the mechanic.

Now, if you think it makes no sense realistically, we can discuss that, but perhaps Feature Requests (if you think it deserves changes) or Background (if you just want to talk about how exactly those Medieval commoners maintained buildings) might yield more focused results.

Here, in this thread? At any moment now we could go back to talking about some other topic regarding Barca.

Galvez

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #28: May 11, 2011, 01:52:09 AM »
You can attest to it that it is only a result of low population. That it will not happen when production has stopped for a month, while there is enough population. I heard a higher production will repair your buildings. Then it might work the other way around as well. And you still do not cover the 'why'. I believe everything is implanted for a reason. So why does the current system work as it does?

And if a forum moderator would be willing to place our recent discussion about the decay of buildings among the feature request, we already have a base to build on. But given the attitude of one of the dev members, I've little hope changing from forum would help anything if the devs do not recognize it as a 'fault' within the current system.
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songqu88@gmail.com

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Re: Re: Barca
« Reply #29: May 11, 2011, 02:24:51 AM »
The final answer to any questions of why ultimately lend to Tom's reply, if it comes to that.

The answer I can come up with is because of possible fairness. Let's remember that this is still a game about competing against other realms to win battles. It would be fair that those who are capable of protecting their population would benefit from more stable infrastructure. This is quite obvious, in fact, as those who allow themselves to get looted will obviously run the risk of losing out in the region. Damaging infrastructure can directly damage an RC.

Ok, now let's say that we have two regions, A and B. A's lord is getting his region utterly pounded left and right by the enemy. There is nothing he can do, and the realm is not exactly helpful either. Oh well, that's tough. Note this doesn't have to mean lowered population due to fighting necessarily. If the lord doesn't know how to take care of his own region's food supply, then he also deserves the negative consequences of his negligence/ineptitude. Now let's say B's lord is diligent and belongs to a strong realm that can protect his region. He looks after his warehouses as well such that the peasants never starve. Good for him, he gets to have nice shiny buildings.

So my take is that in essence it allows a difference to appear between those who are able to take care of their regions, and those who aren't. Now you will most likely point out that Barca isn't in that situation, for which I will say you are quite correct. But therein also lies the original point: A clear difference between those who are capable of taking care of their regions and those who aren't.

Barca has allies who can protect Rettleville, who might also be capable of supplying it with food. That way, while Rettleville is essentially empty of Barcan facilities, foreign aid can keep it alive. That should be the essence of a colony, you know. The British didn't stay in America for almost two hundred years just because they thought it was fun, yeah?

Now, if on the other hand, you were swimming on your own, then it simply is an added hardship that punishes you for making the mistake of setting off unprepared for a colony. This is something I think some people don't quite get on Dwilight. Colonies, in the usual sense of the word, does not mean "fire and forget". It means you cultivate it meticulously for a fairly long time, like a personal garden, which you protect from the elements, from disease, from pests, until one day your seeds sprout into plants that actually bear fruit.