Author Topic: Fined for not giving access to Banker  (Read 3279 times)

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Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Topic Start: February 13, 2014, 10:27:34 AM »
Summary:Fined for not giving access to Banker
Violation:Inalienable Rights violated
World:Dwilight
Complainer:Daniel Richard
About:Menelaus

Full Complaint Text:
Region Lords have the right to not allow the Banker access to there Regions,  How can one be ordered to do so, its the same concept of ordering a noble to recruit certain types of troops to recruit or punishing nobles for attending tournaments.   The fines are for the wrong reasons period.


Here is the in game messages.


Fine Issued   (8 hours ago)

message to all nobles of Morek Empire

Menelaus Raghnall, High Inquisitor of Morek Empire, Margrave of Caiyun, Marshal of the Holy Inquisition has put a penalty of 150 gold on Estoole Rhentrony, Count of Zhongyuan for this reason:


You have ignored countless requests to open up your graneries to the Coffermaster in this troubled time.  I warned you that you had a week to open up your graneries but you decided to ignore this warning.  I even gave you a few extra days to com

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Fine Issued   (8 hours ago)

message to all nobles of Morek Empire

Menelaus Raghnall, High Inquisitor of Morek Empire, Margrave of Caiyun, Marshal of the Holy Inquisition has put a penalty of 150 gold on To'bul Chan'gu'Con, Count of Croton for this reason:


You have ignored countless requests to open up your graneries to the Coffermaster in this troubled time.  I warned you that you had a week to open up your graneries but you decided to ignore this warning.  I even gave you a few extra days to com

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Report from Estoole Rhentrony   (5 hours, 51 minutes ago)

Message sent to everyone in your realm (35 recipients)

Fine Issued   (2 hours ago)

message to all nobles of Morek Empire

Menelaus Raghnall, High Inquisitor of Morek Empire, Margrave of Caiyun, Marshal of the Holy Inquisition has put a penalty of 150 gold on Estoole Rhentrony, Count of Zhongyuan for this reason:


You have ignored countless requests to open up your graneries to the Coffermaster in this troubled time.  I warned you that you had a week to open up your graneries but you decided to ignore this warning.  I even gave you a few extra days to com



There is not a single buy order on the Market, why am I being fined? I sell when there are buy orders, this realm is quickly  becoming out of control with oppressive Council Members.


I for one will refuse to stand by for this, if food in needed then have those in need place buy orders, it is by no one business of my markets save myself and my Duke


Estoole Rhentrony

Count of Zhongyuan

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Letter from Pratap Eastwood   (4 hours, 23 minutes ago)

Message sent to everyone in your realm (35 recipients)

Count Estoole,


Finally I see a letter from you!! First, for the record there are atleast 1000bushels of buy offers on the market, both from your own Duchy Donghaiwei as well as from Springdale.

You do know that you can put up sell offers on the market for the Dukes to buy instead of waiting for someone to write you a letter to sell your food?


You say we are oppressive? What do we do when people refuse to reply to our letters, refuse to act on it or give an explanation about their intentions?



1. I have written you several letters for several months now, each time asking to sell food and grant me permission to your granaries.

    You have not responded to any of those letters.

2. Your liege, Grandmistress Eviera had ordered you a month back to open up your granaries when we and our allies were in dire need of food. You ignored those orders as well.

3. I sent you orders when this monster incursion began to put up the food in your granaries on the market for sale, to prevent it getting eaten by the monsters. You have ignored those as well.

4. You ignored our High Inquisitor's request as well to grant access


You have more than 1200 bushels stored in your granaries and your  Duchess has less than 200bushels of food in her granaries right now. You do not know the food situation of the

realm or your own Duchy and neither can you see the food offers put up around the realm. So least you could do is help your realm when you have been asked to do so.


Pratap Eastwood

Coffermaster of Morek Empire

Count of Ashrak

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jaune

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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #1: February 13, 2014, 10:34:15 AM »
Uh, i really dont see that mentioned on http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Inalienable_Rights

I think judge has right to fine if he sees it fit, totally in game situation.
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Velax

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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #2: February 13, 2014, 10:41:31 AM »
Yes, I think I must have missed this particular Inalienable Right. If you could point out where on the IR Wiki page this particular Right is, I'm sure it will help the Magistrates rule more quickly.

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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #3: February 13, 2014, 10:44:12 AM »
Same principle as telling a player what to recruit.  This is one of the newer features so it wouldn't have mention directly in the IA

But it needs to join the list, has way to many abusive features if concepts of that above is proof.

Tom

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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #4: February 13, 2014, 10:47:08 AM »
Not an IR.

The IRs protect OUT OF CHARACTER enjoyment, this is an in-character power struggle that should be resolved through in-character actions.

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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #5: February 13, 2014, 10:55:55 AM »
Tom

No its not but your just looking at the surface, look deeper at your choice here and realize the damage that can grow from it.  Allowing bad mechanics destroys the fun for other players, this should be clear to see.

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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #6: February 13, 2014, 11:37:48 AM »
I've been involved in a situation like this myself, though I did refuse as soon as the "request" was made and did not wait until being fined before objecting.

Same arguments with regard to insisting that if people wanted my food they needed to put up buy orders.

As it is, I then set up an auto sell offer when my stocks got too high that is available to anyone. If the people within my own realm really wanted food they could put up but requests - I have fulfilled many, but still the auto sell went into place at times...
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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #7: February 13, 2014, 11:45:28 AM »
Tom

No its not but your just looking at the surface, look deeper at your choice here and realize the damage that can grow from it.  Allowing bad mechanics destroys the fun for other players, this should be clear to see.

You would need to explain why it is any worse then the hundreds of other orders that can be issued and expected to be obey via a medieval hierarchy. For instance nobles have often been fined for travelling outside of their realm.
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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #8: February 13, 2014, 12:58:08 PM »
This is about the players hoarding food and not responding back anyway to those who asked them to sell food.
Morek is a theocracy.. the said players ignored orders from the ruler itself.. dont think any medieval rulers would have accepted that without doing anything. They didnt even give an explanation or speak until now on why they dont want to sell food or open up their granaries.

This complaint seems to be more out of OOC reasons as the player complaining is one who was ridiculed by the ruler for supporting a region lord who allowed his region to starve and got kicked out due to the region loosing control.

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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #9: February 13, 2014, 01:21:48 PM »
Yes, I really don't see the issue here.

It is a legitimate power struggle between Lords and the Council. If the Lords are looking after their food well, and making sure it gets sold, then they can argue that giving the Banker control is unnecessary. If, however, they are being negligent, and through this negligence the realm suffers, and if they then further refuse to cooperate when the Banker tries to right the situation, then arguably they deserve punishment.

Totally IC power struggle and dynamics. There is no rule that says "you can do whatever you want with your region, this is OOC and protected by IR".

Just like the IR says you can be active as much or little as you want. HOWEVER, higher positions require more commitment, an unspoken agreement when you take them on. This does not mean that you need to log in every day, but you DO need to do the job that your positions requires. And if not, you will, or at least SHOULD be called on it.

And you just got called on it.

Too many people just sit by quietly in BM (I know, as I am guilty of this in some instances as well), and then complain when their lack of participation is frowned upon. In this case, it sounds like you are actively not participating, and further not allowing others to do the job that you should be doing, and then complaining here when they apply the stick as an attempted second corrective measure.

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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #10: February 13, 2014, 01:42:28 PM »
IC issue.  Handle it IC.

You should certainly know better, Daniel.
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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #11: February 13, 2014, 06:19:54 PM »
Just like the IR says you can be active as much or little as you want. HOWEVER, higher positions require more commitment,

Uh, no.

If this argument were about being fined for not following an order right then and there, or within a few hours, then it would be an IR violation.

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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #12: February 13, 2014, 06:21:14 PM »
No its not but your just looking at the surface, look deeper at your choice here and realize the damage that can grow from it.  Allowing bad mechanics destroys the fun for other players, this should be clear to see.

If you think so, bring the topic up in an appropriate board and explain what you think the bad mechanics is.

But the IRs are explicitly listed, and this does not violate any of them.


Chenier

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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #13: February 13, 2014, 07:21:32 PM »
Indeed, there's no rule against this as is, but I'm somewhat surprised at how clear cut your stance is, Tom, given how much resistance there was to give bankers power over food by the dev team, specifically because of fear of this kind of behavior.

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Re: Fined for not giving access to Banker
« Reply #14: February 14, 2014, 12:43:02 AM »
It does seem like an abuse of power, but there are mechanics to deal with that in-game. Protest your fine, and if your entire realm thinks that is the way to do things, then it may be time to look at some of the other realms (with or without your region).

I consider it a feature (not a bug). A power-struggle over ownership of essential resources. If your banker/rural lord is being disrespectful and rude about it or something, that may be a different matter.
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