Noble density per realm - Dwilight

[Marlboro]

This isn't true, we were already planning invasions by the Inner Sea.  We wouldn't have been able to take over your regions, but we could have looted and plundered you away into oblivion.  Based on what we have seen it looks like the drought and subsequent  rebalance hit Corsantum hard.  I don't think it beyond the possibility that you could have lost your realm, or have been forced to turn it over to Astrum or Morek at the very least.

Yeah, Paul was getting pushed pretty hard on this pre-apocalypse. It was coming, the monsters just sped things up.

[Indirik]

Slightly off-topic: I read an article in which Warren Buffet gives advice for achieving success, and one of his recommendations was banning the phrase "we tried that and it didn't work," because it kills constructive thinking.

Indeed, that is a good point. But when you propose something, be prepared to be told reasons why it may not work. Especially if it's something that we have, literally, already done, and the players despised it.

[Buffalkill]

Indeed, that is a good point. But when you propose something, be prepared to be told reasons why it may not work. Especially if it's something that we have, literally, already done, and the players despised it.

I understand and accept that. But instead of only finding flaws (which is always the easy and lazy thing to do) I think it's more useful to look at an idea and see what's good about it, and how can we mitigate the unintended consequences. If we tried something before and it failed, we should ask why it failed, and how can we change it without discarding the good parts.


As I already said on another thread, we have very different circumstances compared to 2008. The common critique of this idea is that it will result in realms being too spread out and there won't be enough nobles for regions to expand. Well, Dwilight today is very different. The realms will necessarily be close together because we have half the regions and a fairly large player base, at least for now. So maybe the critical flaw that caused this idea to fail in 2008, wouldn't necessarily repeat itself if we tried it today. And I'm sure there are hundreds of parameters in the game that could be tweaked to improve game play.

[Chenier]

I disagree. Density changes nothing to geography. Luria always had a lot of nobles. Sure, it might be large realm, but the density was never anywhere near as bad as it was in Morek or Corsanctum.

Yet... it has a desert to cross to get to its Southern neighbor. Another desert to cross to get to its western neighbor. A huge frigging mountain range to go North. And nothing but water East. As long as Luria remains a single realm, you could double its noble density, triple it, it won't matter. The geographic barriers remain.

Morek has the seas North of it. And East of it. And West of it. South, a mountain range.

Fissoa has the seas South of it. And East of it. And West of it. North, a desert.

For good and for bad, Dwilight was designed this way. It's my understanding that the idea of having a vast continent, with subcontinents, would allow for interesting diplomacy where it is impossible for everyone to always get involved in everything. I assume, however, that it was also presumed that realms would be a lot smaller. Dwilight's history decided otherwise, however, as those who wanted to rule and govern had an easier time settling abroad than trying to compete for land close to home. Those already established, equally, had greater interests in sponsoring far-off colonies than sharing anything close to home. Even if politics were different, though, would it really fix anything? Dwilight geography is still linear, especially when you take out the western half. Break Morek apart, somehow, and you still end up with realms where most borders are either the seas, the river, or mountains.

[Dishman]

Morek could fit almost 5 other realms within it. The realms expanded to natural borders because of lack of pressure. Noble density gives pressure, so maybe now we'll see some realm capitals within marching distance of each other.

Before, a 10 region realm only had 10 or so players (cause most of Dwilight were lords). They were quiet backwaters because there was no manpower and the capital of the border realms were a weeks march. Everything grew too big in Dwilight, because we had so much excess.

Put opponents within distance of each other and natural borders won't matter near as much. Hell, even now people live in those desolate mountains. Swordfell has carved out a living there for some time now.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Dwilight is awesome.

[Indirik]

I disagree. Density changes nothing to geography. Luria always had a lot of nobles. Sure, it might be large realm, but the density was never anywhere near as bad as it was in Morek or Corsanctum.

Luria had the political instability that comes with lots of nobles and limited positions. That's why it fractured and was the political hotbed of the island. Lots of nobles, few positions.

For good and for bad, Dwilight was designed this way. It's my understanding that the idea of having a vast continent, with subcontinents, would allow for interesting diplomacy where it is impossible for everyone to always get involved in everything. I assume, however, that it was also presumed that realms would be a lot smaller.

Indeed, when we started in Morek, we never ever dreamed that we would end up controlling so much land. We thought 20 regions would be an un-achievable  pipe dream.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Luria had the political instability that comes with lots of nobles and limited positions. That's why it fractured and was the political hotbed of the island. Lots of nobles, few positions.
Indeed, when we started in Morek, we never ever dreamed that we would end up controlling so much land. We thought 20 regions would be an un-achievable  pipe dream.

Luria actually wasn't as populated as you all think. Take another good look at the numbers, you'll find that besides Morek and Corsanctum, they were worse than everyone else.

[Glloyd]

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make any sense.

Sure, you may find being a knight boring. But there's more to do as a knight now than there has been at any other time in BattleMaster's history, including the peak of our growth around six years ago.

That said, I do want to make all aspects of the game, especially being a knight, more interesting and fun. The way I'm planning to do that right now is to make war more prevalent and less frustrating.

Just saying that just because there's more to do as a knight now doesn't mean that it's fun. Also, text based browser games have been on a steep decline for the last 6 years.

Maybe people just don't want to play Battlemaster anymore, and that's why new players don't want to stick around. They join, see this unappealing interface with no pretty pictures for instant gratification, look at a pixelly map from a game that was made at least a decade ago with blobs of nations that have strange names. Then, as a knight, they are greeted with a host of things they CAN'T do. Want to change class? Nope. Want to recruit a large force? Nope. Want to run for election? Nope. Want to be a lord? Nope.

The only reason I stuck around is because I enjoy roleplaying, and I assumed that the game would get better when I became a lord, which I assumed would happen right when I got the necessary amount of prestige. I got the necessary amount of prestige, became a lord, then had fun with the game. However, I have a high tolerance for games that looks unappealing (I found out about the game on the Dwarf Fortress forums). Many others don't, so they join, realize that they won't get any instant gratification from this game, and then they leave and forget all about the game.

Honestly? I think new player retention could be helped by making the game not look so Web 1.0, and overhauling the interface. Also, a mobile version of the game would help hugely.

But I don't expect these things to happen. They're not going to happen. So people will continue to join, see an extremely outdated looking webpage and leave for greener pastures while the old players hang around and continue their circlejerk about how great the game was in 2008 and 2009.

You know, I think if this monster nonsense hadn't happened, that would have driven me away soon enough. The insular attitudes, the stagnation and the nauseating amount of sentiment regarding "the good old days" which is itself a massive turn off for new players. Frankly I (and any other new player) don't give a damn about what happened before they joined, and when everyone else playing does, then it makes you feel left out. And who wants to play a multiplayer game that makes you feel left out? That's too much like the real world, and aren't video games supposed to be an escape from the real world? All I wanted to do (and all any new player really wants to do) is establish themselves in their realm and have a good time, while feeling included. If you can't foster that sense of inclusion for new players, no stopgap measure like glaciers or monster invasions will do anything to increase density, because people will always be leaving the game, you'll just have fewer and fewer people coming in.

Anyways, I'm rambling on. You are all so ingrained in your rut, and you'll just keep grinding it down until you're so deep that nobody will want to follow you down. Nothing I say will likely have any effect on your actions, or the future of this game. I hope you realize what you're doing wrong before everybody leaves and you're left with a skeleton crew of people reminiscing about the good old days.

[Zakilevo]

stuff

Time has changed that is for sure. There are a lot of graphically satisfying browser games than there were when BM first started. Unfortunately, BM isn't about pretty graphics. It is true that BM looks unappealing when you look at GUI and graphics of the game. I believe Tom once tried to find someone to make BM look better but he couldn't. Also, many people are forgetting the fact this is a free game. Sure a handful of people donate a bit but that isn't even enough to keep the game rolling.

The game has been becoming more newcomer friendly over the years and I expect it will continue to do so for the coming years. Some changes will frustrate people like the ice event but it is just a necessary part for the betterment of the game.

The fact that there is only one person - Anaris - working on the game doesn't speed things up either. He is doing this out of his love for the game. Everyone has their own ideas of what BM should be like. But the only one who is actually working on it is Anaris and he is doing this voluntary. I know everyone is frustrated but letting your anger out on the forum doesn't help much either.

[dustole]

Luria had the political instability that comes with lots of nobles and limited positions. That's why it fractured and was the political hotbed of the island. Lots of nobles, few positions.
Indeed, when we started in Morek, we never ever dreamed that we would end up controlling so much land. We thought 20 regions would be an un-achievable  pipe dream.

Not quite true.   I found a map I drew way back in the early days of Dwilight.    I used a map of Dwilight and drew in political boundaries when we were trying to figure out what we were doing.    One of those maps has Morek almost exactly as it is now. 

[Indirik]

Sure we had dreams and aspirations, but most of us, including you, figured there was no way we'd get that far. Hell, we *wanted* all the way to Mimer. But we were also convinced that we'd never get that far. We couldn't even hold Unterstrom.

[Glaumring the Fox]

You still can't hold Unterstrom... 

[Chenier]

Luria had the political instability that comes with lots of nobles and limited positions. That's why it fractured and was the political hotbed of the island. Lots of nobles, few positions.
Indeed, when we started in Morek, we never ever dreamed that we would end up controlling so much land. We thought 20 regions would be an un-achievable  pipe dream.

One can't reduce Lurian culture to density alone. I don't believe that other realms had much less nobles, if any less, when things started. However, Luria is the sole realm which failed to produce any colonies. It was always more self-centered.

That being said, it hasn't fractured significantly in a while, either, and it got big through (illegal) peaceful merger.

[dustole]

Shadovar/Dhara is a Lurian colony as is GDoF.