lower honor/prestige requirements for classes

[Penchant]

With respect, your assessments are very subjective. I've never played courtier (it sounds boring to me) but the fact that several players opt to play it shows that some people are into it. I don't think newbies need to be protected from making boring choices. The more choices they are given, the more likely they are to find something that suits them. From my personal experience, there was a time that I really wanted to try Trader class and I couldn't. Eventually I achieved the HP requirement, but it took months, and what would have been the harm if I had changed class sooner? From my point of view, it just made the game more frustrating that I couldn't access a part of the game that I was most interested in.

I would somewhat disagree on them being subjective. It can be argued, but only poorly in my opinion that letting newbies start out as Courtier is a good idea. Like I said, I enjoy playing Courtier and Priest but its a bad idea for newbies to start out with them. The core of the game is war and interacting with people, which being courtier doesn't directly inhibit but it in fact hurts both indirectly. If you like to RP, then you shouldn't need to be a certain class to do that.

I am aware depending on the realm it might be a little hard to get those battles, but if you really want them, you can get them. I had one character I went around the continent to go monster hunting and accidentally attacked realm's capital we were trying to gain relations with and I wounded our 70 year old general in the process. Boy did that stir some interaction (and I probably got some decent h/p for it helping me to get to my desired class).

Forcing people to find battles doesn't seem so bad to me. Heck start putting pressure on the ruler. You might just be a knight, but a realm with no knights is a weak realm, so even though one knight might not be a ton of pressure you can try and get others to join in.

To the rest of your post, please just stop arguing. I know it takes two to tango so I privately messaged him as well.

If you like pressing a button that spends all your hours to increase regional stats by 1~2%, the courtier class is what you want. It is definitely worth your time. Otherwise, it is more boring than being a priest.

I do agree some requirements are unnecessarily high. I do agree some military related classes should have some high standards but I think we should really lower standards for at least hero,courtier and trader.

Hero - so people die more often. Dying is always awesome.

Courtier, Trader - why on earth do these class even have a restriction? I understand what used to happen in the earlier days but if they try to pull the same thing they will get hammered by IR. I doubt people would want to deal with IR just so they can have one or two more courtiers.

I have already mentioned support changing exactly how requirements work for courtier and trader. Hero should remain at whatever is because you don't want new players choosing it right away and then getting screwed because they can't change their class back.

Courtier is definitely better than priest for newbies for one key reason, they can still recruit a unit, so they can still participate in battles. Sure they have a smaller unit but they can still participate in wars, priests can't.

[Zakilevo]

You will hardly ever reach over 80% if you are leading an infantry unit or cavalry unit since they die too often.

The easiest way to maintain your training is to recruit only 10% of your remaining men per recruitment. This will however, use a lot of your hours and you still lose cohesion but you will only lose 1% or so per recruitment instead of recruiting 50 men at once which will pretty much reset your stat.

The current design favours archers as they won't die too easily as long as you maintain them well. This helps archers a lot although they still need some buffs  - which will come with Anaris's War improvement package - as they are not as useful as other two types.

[Eirikr]

It seems we're also completely ignoring the fact that you can change out of Courtier at almost any time. If someone really decides it's boring, there's still a way out. First impressions are important, sure, but that's why you write in some warning text.

Honestly, the arguments both for and against it are pretty weak. If it's such a harm to the game and so hopelessly boring, why is it even a part of the game? Moreover, why would it be a part of the game that you have to unlock or earn? Generally, you don't work hard to receive a punishment (unless you're playing Dark Souls).

From my experience playing my courtier, I do get plenty of player interaction (though it is realm-internal mostly). I imagine it depends on how active lords are, but there often is someone who needs your services and is willing to seek you out. It is an odd duck when it comes to war, though, as there really is no point for a courtier to be on the front lines... which comes back to the question: Why does a courtier need to have built up a military career to go push a pen?

The point really isn't how many battles or how long it takes, it's the disconnect between the job and how it is achieved.

A similar argument can be made with priests, but if it was applied, I'd encourage a different bar to newbie access be placed. Priests are definitely more complicated and really need a player to feel comfortable chatting with other players to be compelling. (Because mark my words, the second you use any of a priest's more interesting commands, you are going to get hammered with letters. Those same commands also give Priests a unique battle role that Courtiers lack.)

You will hardly ever reach over 80% if you are leading an infantry unit or cavalry unit since they die too often.

The easiest way to maintain your training is to recruit only 10% of your remaining men per recruitment. This will however, use a lot of your hours and you still lose cohesion but you will only lose 1% or so per recruitment instead of recruiting 50 men at once which will pretty much reset your stat.

The current design favours archers as they won't die too easily as long as you maintain them well. This helps archers a lot although they still need some buffs  - which will come with Anaris's War improvement package - as they are not as useful as other two types.

What? Wrong thread?

[Buffalkill]

In the 'Info" tab under 'Statistics' there's a pie chart showing class choices. Why not let players choose their class when they create the character, but display that pie chart along with a brief description of each class. Then they can make an informed choice. It's rather pointless for the rest of us to stand around and say I think 'courtier' is boring therefore newbies should be barred from choosing it. As I said before, I know most people think Trader is boring, but I actually like it, and it annoyed me that I wasn't allowed to choose it.

[Penchant]

In the 'Info" tab under 'Statistics' there's a pie chart showing class choices. Why not let players choose their class when they create the character, but display that pie chart along with a brief description of each class. Then they can make an informed choice. It's rather pointless for the rest of us to stand around and say I think 'courtier' is boring therefore newbies should be barred from choosing it. As I said before, I know most people think Trader is boring, but I actually like it, and it annoyed me that I wasn't allowed to choose it.

Well I am the main one against it as far as I can tell, and I have never said the classes suck or are boring. I enjoy every single class, the only two I haven't been yet are infil and hero and I know I would enjoy both without playing them but I wouldn't recommend either one to a new player. What I am saying is a newbie, whom aren't usually the most interacting with others, shouldn't start off as a class right away that isn't very fun without interacting with people. The need for h/p gets them traveling and interacting, either because they are in a war for a little bit or because they are wondering chasing down monsters, either one has them interacting with people, preparing them for a fun time with the other classes. I even supported the suggestion to remove an h/p requirement for courtier and instead just do a time requirement.

Eirikr, there is a huge issue with first point. There is a 15 day minimum between class changes I fully support, and if a new player decides he doesn't like courtier, he isn't going to stick around to wait. If a new player decides he just hates being a warrior, then I see that player not sticking around for very long.

To your second point, as I already said, I don't see the classes as bad, just bad for a new player to start in.

At Buffalkill, like I said a new player doesn't actually know what he will enjoy right away, but with new players almost always having a low initiator of interaction early on, the class of courtier won't be that fun of one, which is why forcing some interaction will prepare them to have fun as a courtier or other class that requires interacting, especially initiating, to be fun.

As well, I supported allowing all stewards to become traders, which in most instances will just require requesting the lord, if not it would be switching your estate to a rural lord, then requesting  because they generally have few if any knights. If they can't ask a lord to make them steward, I don't see them talking with foreigners to actually make trading successful.

[Buffalkill]

As well, I supported allowing all stewards to become traders, which in most instances will just require requesting the lord, if not it would be switching your estate to a rural lord, then requesting  because they generally have few if any knights. If they can't ask a lord to make them steward, I don't see them talking with foreigners to actually make trading successful.

I didn't know the role of "steward" existed until I became a lord and then had the option to appoint one, so I can't blame any newbie for failing to ask.

[Penchant]

I didn't know the role of "steward" existed until I became a lord and then had the option to appoint one, so I can't blame any newbie for failing to ask.

Well if we made it that way I would suggest putting it on the class change page under trader stating that becoming steward will allow them to become trader regardless of their h/p. I personally am in favor of slapping the steward title on knight's signature or just replacing knight of with steward(ess) of blank. I don't why a knight wouldn't include what little title beyond a simple knight he has in his signature.

[Buffalkill]

Well if we made it that way I would suggest putting it on the class change page under trader stating that becoming steward will allow them to become trader regardless of their h/p. I personally am in favor of slapping the steward title on knight's signature or just replacing knight of with steward(ess) of blank. I don't why a knight wouldn't include what little title beyond a simple knight he has in his signature.

Yeah, I'd even go a step further and say make it automatic, at least it gives knights something more to do.

[Penchant]

Yeah, I'd even go a step further and say make it automatic, at least it gives knights something more to do.

No, you shouldn't do class changes automatically nor give class bonuses automatically. There are a variety of issues with doing that, which I hope you can think about for a minute and figure out on your own.

[Buffalkill]

No, you shouldn't do class changes automatically nor give class bonuses automatically. There are a variety of issues with doing that, which I hope you can think about for a minute and figure out on your own.

What issues are you thinking? I'm just thinking that the knight game could use more features to make it more interesting.

[Anaris]

I have removed the remaining hostile posts and portions of posts, including my own. I apologize for starting that last night; I was out of line.

(Now, taking my mod hat off and putting my dev hat on...)

It is true that the IR forbid ordering class changes, and that does somewhat mitigate some of the problems that the restrictions were intended to combat.

However, I am frankly very skeptical that there is a significant number of new players who are at all interested in these classes, whose purpose is essentially "sit in one region pushing a button until the stats read 100/100/100, then move to another region and do the same thing." Moreover, that is absolutely not what we want new players to think the game is meant to be about.

Regarding the suggestion about traders and stewards: That is simply far too abusable. If someone wanted to be a trader, but not a steward (or his Lord didn't want him to be a steward), the Lord could make him a steward just long enough to become a trader, then make someone else the steward. If we were going to do that, we might as well just make having an estate the requirement for being a trader.

In principle, I'm not opposed to the idea of changing at least some of the restrictions from H/P based to time-based. However, the restrictions are not purely meant to be OOC restrictions. Honour and prestige have an IC meaning, and "being well known/respected" is a perfectly reasonable restriction on many classes.

Finally, regardless of all the other arguments, I'm not going to be making any changes to these restrictions until we've seen how the effects of at least the main parts of the War Improvements Package play out.

[vonGenf]

However, I am frankly very skeptical that there is a significant number of new players who are at all interested in these classes, whose purpose is essentially "sit in one region pushing a button until the stats read 100/100/100, then move to another region and do the same thing." Moreover, that is absolutely not what we want new players to think the game is meant to be about.

I'm really glad that the restrictions was there when I first joined the game. The core of the battlemaster experience remains the warrior character. If I had started as a Courtier or Trader I would probably have found the game boring. It's only later, when you understand more the culture of a realm or religion or island, that you can play these characters in an interesting manner.

But I've been playing for years now. It seems weird that if I want to create a new trader character, I must first have the character go through a warrior phase. I know what a trader is, I'm not going to be surprised.

[Eirikr]

Eirikr, there is a huge issue with first point. There is a 15 day minimum between class changes I fully support, and if a new player decides he doesn't like courtier, he isn't going to stick around to wait. If a new player decides he just hates being a warrior, then I see that player not sticking around for very long.

To your second point, as I already said, I don't see the classes as bad, just bad for a new player to start in.

Yeah, I knew there was a delay, but wasn't sure how long it was. Do you have to wait 15 days from starting as a warrior to pick up any other class, though? (Provided you meet all other criteria?) If someone starts as a courtier, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to code in a free first change.

You and others did say the class was boring, but also that you enjoyed it. That's okay, I kinda agree. Or, if you want to split hairs, it was definitely said that some see the class as boring. It's not really the point. The point is that Courtier (since I agree with the Priest being bad for newbies) isn't particularly complicated or anything and not so limited that they can't fight at all. In fact, I often see new nobles limited to about 25 men (especially cavalry) up until that point anyway. Why not give them another way to be useful in the meantime? (There is still some time where they can exceed the Courtier cap, but I don't believe it's that long. Still more than 15 days' time depending on how often you gain H/P from battles.)

I will, however, concede that there's probably not a ton of newbies clamoring for this, but I would be shocked to see that number as 0.

I'm also going to slightly contradict my above argument again: I still think, if there is a restriction on the class at all, it shouldn't be battle-based. I'm glad you said you'd consider those after the War Improvements Anaris, but unless the Courtier class is fundamentally changing to be more like a War Bureaucrat, then it doesn't solve the disconnect. Honor and Prestige are likely needed for the Courtier to be respected enough to make changes, yes, but until there's a good way to get it other than battle, it makes little sense. A warrior coming off a relatively successful career would be seen as a coward for wanting to go do admin work. Which leads back into making it available from the start.

Maybe instead the right way to go is make it a time requirement for the first character and then unlocked for a starter on each new character after?