Number of Players Lost Since Glacier?

[Anaris]

That's why I'd ask you to be more transparent and less oppressive and aggressive in here and leave room for possible mistakes on your side. Just as you did in your reply to me now. But this could be done in more points in this discussion.

And what we've been saying, this whole time, isn't, "No, you're wrong, this is obviously working." It's been "It's too soon to tell, chill out and wait a while, we have to see how things go."

But some people, at least, aren't interested in waiting. They see things being bad NOW and so they assume we must have been wrong.

[bofeng]

Not accusing anyone. But these decisions leave dev team vulnerable to doubts.

Many players don't leave, because the game is unique. I played four years ago for a short period of half year, and then quit. But I came back because it's unique. That doesn't mean everything can't be improved. It's fine with me if the point is not taken. After all, we all owe thanks to Tom and hard-working dev team.

[Anaris]

That doesn't mean everything can't be improved.

Oh, definitely. I've got waaaay more ideas for how to improve things (and even clearly laid-out plans) than I have time to implement them. At least so far.

[Zakilevo]

Give it a half year or so and you will then see the results. Big changes like this will take time to sink in.

You should all be thanking Tim for even trying to fix the problems we have. Hold on to your urge to complain until we get the results.

[Eirikr]

Anaris. Let's say this very straight.
The polls were not IC, they were on the forum.
On the forum are only active players.
So only active players voted.
Which again means that it hits active realms where these players play.
Which again makes it not really random.
If you can accept that this is why now so many players are against what happened, then you could also find a way for a solution to ease them.

(Emphasis added.)

While I'm not really interested in this discussion as a whole, I feel I need to point out a few things here:

• You make a good point about the polls being on the forums. It was definitely mostly active players. New players and others do occasionally check the forums, though. If I recall, there may also have been a yellow box announcement about it, too... but I can't remember for sure.
• The players still had no idea what impact the poll would have. Nothing was promised with the poll, only suggested with a clear disclaimer that it may not happen. You're right, this isn't truly random, but it also isn't driven by intent.
• Even so, the assertion that this process is the reason players are against it is a loaded, logical leap.

You see, there's no actual link between your observations and final player complaints. They may be your complaints, yes, but that's one data point. You may even be right... but the observations presented here never make it to that step. We'd have to go out three things, in this order:

• Do players like it or not?
• If not, why not?
• What are the actual statistical results of the event?

The first question does not make the assumption (as you seem to) that players inherently dislike the event.
The second question clarifies the first, proving or disproving your hypothesis. It's entirely possible people dislike the event because of what it represents (diminishing numbers of BM) or because it means they have to move... they may have no problem with the method at all.
The final question provides a control, either aligning real data with public opinion or shattering misconceptions about the effects. Either way, it ends the debate with facts. (Though we know that doesn't mean people won't stop trying to spin it some other way.) This can't be fulfilled until the ice has stopped moving and the event is over*.

I also guarantee that those answers will change depending upon when the questions are asked.

*- Yes, the event being over is technically "too late"... but it's Tom's game. He makes the rules and this is what he chose. He and the devs will stop it when they stop it, and from that point, they can choose to collect the data or not. It's you who have to decide if it's still enjoyable for you to play the game. Hell, he doesn't even have to do any of this. It's his right to just say things will be whatever they will be.

Sorry, I'm just not very tolerant of faulty logic and poorly-based assertions.

[Gustav Kuriga]

(Emphasis added.)

While I'm not really interested in this discussion as a whole, I feel I need to point out a few things here:

• You make a good point about the polls being on the forums. It was definitely mostly active players. New players and others do occasionally check the forums, though. If I recall, there may also have been a yellow box announcement about it, too... but I can't remember for sure.
• The players still had no idea what impact the poll would have. Nothing was promised with the poll, only suggested with a clear disclaimer that it may not happen. You're right, this isn't truly random, but it also isn't driven by intent.
• Even so, the assertion that this process is the reason players are against it is a loaded, logical leap.

You see, there's no actual link between your observations and final player complaints. They may be your complaints, yes, but that's one data point. You may even be right... but the observations presented here never make it to that step. We'd have to go out three things, in this order:

• Do players like it or not?
• If not, why not?
• What are the actual statistical results of the event?

The first question does not make the assumption (as you seem to) that players inherently dislike the event.
The second question clarifies the first, proving or disproving your hypothesis. It's entirely possible people dislike the event because of what it represents (diminishing numbers of BM) or because it means they have to move... they may have no problem with the method at all.
The final question provides a control, either aligning real data with public opinion or shattering misconceptions about the effects. Either way, it ends the debate with facts. (Though we know that doesn't mean people won't stop trying to spin it some other way.) This can't be fulfilled until the ice has stopped moving and the event is over*.

I also guarantee that those answers will change depending upon when the questions are asked.

*- Yes, the event being over is technically "too late"... but it's Tom's game. He makes the rules and this is what he chose. He and the devs will stop it when they stop it, and from that point, they can choose to collect the data or not. It's you who have to decide if it's still enjoyable for you to play the game. Hell, he doesn't even have to do any of this. It's his right to just say things will be whatever they will be.

Sorry, I'm just not very tolerant of faulty logic and poorly-based assertions.

I would have to say that some of your own logic is faulty.

[Anaris]

I would have to say that some of your own logic is faulty.

Then please point it out with a clear explanation as to why. Don't just post random insulting one-liners.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Then please point it out with a clear explanation as to why. Don't just post random insulting one-liners.

Frankly, my brain is too fuzzy after participating in these "discussions" to do anything more at this time.

[Zakilevo]

Then please point it out with a clear explanation as to why. Don't just post random insulting one-liners.

Can't agree more. Eirikr was just pointing things out in a logical fashion. If you are only here to express only your own opinion, you are not here for a discussion. You are simply here to complain and expecting people to agree with you not thinking of people you might have a different opinion. People will ignore you if you ignore their opinions.

[Indirik]

The polls were not IC, they were on the forum.

Of course they were not IC. We wanted players to vote, not characters.

The fact that we did the polls as forums polls as opposed to IG polls (and yes, I know this is what you really meant) is because how many players voted is irrelevant. As we've already explained, the players had no idea what they were voting for. Which was by design. All we wanted, was some public random coin flip. If we had posted a message IG about "Vote North or South!", all we would have gotten was massive confusion, and still no more statistically valid random result.

Which again means that it hits active realms where these players play.

No matter what we would have picked, we'd have hit realms that had active players.

the admins lock or delete threads.

The only threads that have been locked were the threads that devolved into circular discussions and insults.

A single thread has been deleted. It consisted of one single message, which was a vicious attack upon the integrity of the dev team.

I mean seriously, did I just read from the dev team the indirect soltuion to just leave the game?!
Is that what you want? Is that how you treat people who don't agree with you?

If you don't trust the dev team to do what is best for the game, then what's the point of playing the game? If you think that the dev team is on some personal mission to destroy you and your realms, or that the dev team uses their mysterious powers of influence over Tom to do manual interventions over IC events and actions, or even directly introduces code bugs and loopholes for their personal benefit (and yes, all these are accusations that have been fired at the dev team in the past), then why are you still playing the game?

Maybe you should start accepting some input here and try to come up with some hard facts like has been asked for.

Hard facts about the results of the glaciating event won't be available for, I would guess, at least a year after the event has concluded. So come back in 14-15 months, and we will re-evaluate it then.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Can't agree more. Eirikr was just pointing things out in a logical fashion. If you are only here to express only your own opinion, you are not here for a discussion. You are simply here to complain and expecting people to agree with you not thinking of people you might have a different opinion. People will ignore you if you ignore their opinions.

I've provided proof backing up my own opinions time and again, to have it ignored time and again for the same old excuses. If they're not going to extend that respect to me, I'm not going to for them.

Of course they were not IC. We wanted players to vote, not characters.

The fact that we did the polls as forums polls as opposed to IG polls (and yes, I know this is what you really meant) is because how many players voted is irrelevant. As we've already explained, the players had no idea what they were voting for. Which was by design. All we wanted, was some public random coin flip. If we had posted a message IG about "Vote North or South!", all we would have gotten was massive confusion, and still no more statistically valid random result.

Hard facts about the results of the glaciating event won't be available for, I would guess, at least a year after the event has concluded. So come back in 14-15 months, and we will re-evaluate it then.

The issue people are having with the polls is that they were not done ethically. Everyone did not realize that by voting on the polls, they were basically choosing what would happen in this event. I can guarantee you that some people would not have voted at all had they realized what they were voting for.

As for waiting 14-15 months, I'm sorry, but that's just a cop out. I've provided hard numbers on the realms involved about the noble populations, and we've had several newer players post about their dissatisfaction. Especially relevant was the one who came from Niselur, who spoke about having 6-7 players deleting their characters, if not their accounts, and another 6-7 who stayed behind in Niselur to basically have their characters die in a blaze of glory before quitting. Tell me how that looks for the game? Not very good to me.

[Anaris]

I've provided proof backing up my own opinions time and again, to have it ignored time and again for the same old excuses. If they're not going to extend that respect to me, I'm not going to for them.

See, the problem is, Gustav, from my perspective, I've given solid logical arguments and, where it exists, evidence to back up my opinions, and you've ignored them time and again, giving the same old excuses.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

[Gustav Kuriga]

See, the problem is, Gustav, from my perspective, I've given solid logical arguments and, where it exists, evidence to back up my opinions, and you've ignored them time and again, giving the same old excuses.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

No, I've refuted your arguments with evidence that supports my own. There's a slight difference that you apparently are being too thick to realize.

[Anaris]

No, I've refuted your arguments with evidence that supports my own. There's a slight difference that you apparently are being too thick to realize.

Yeah. And I've refuted your arguments with evidence that supports my own.

And you apparently still don't grasp that I have a point of view where I'm being logical and systematic, rather than just ranting incoherently at you because you disagree with me.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Yeah. And I've refuted your arguments with evidence that supports my own.

And you apparently still don't grasp that I have a point of view where I'm being logical and systematic, rather than just ranting incoherently at you because you disagree with me.

You know Anaris, you're right. And when you're right you're right. And you? You're always right.