Author Topic: North Vs. South  (Read 10589 times)

Anaris

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #30: July 10, 2014, 03:50:50 PM »
No, it's a problem for everyone on FEI. Like I said, the subtext running under it all is that the players on the island are deeply polarized into two groups - those who see your new empire model as a way they want to play; and those who are strongly opposed to it as a playing form. If I read his comment right, Anaris also recognised that as a problem for the island.

No, what I said was that there is a middle ground between a gung-ho, all Empire all the time attitude, and a "We must burn the Empire to the ground if it take a thousand years" attitude.

Middle ground, in general, is something that far too many people in BattleMaster (and, to some extent, the world in general) fail to recognize the existence of.
Timothy Collett

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Indirik

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #31: July 10, 2014, 04:00:00 PM »
I should be absolutely clear that this isn't directed at you personally, Velax, but we now have a situation that's pretty similar on FEI. But we have deafening silence about the surrender terms here on the forum and everywhere else.
FWIW - I've never seen *any* terms or potential treaties related to the war on FEI. So far as I know, no one involved in the war has ever discussed any possible end to the war.

If it involves things like "Stay out of the war, at Peace or better with everyone on our side for 12 months", then it's [email protected]#$.

Other terms that I have come to realize are [email protected]#$ involve things like: "Abandon your allies. Declare war on them, and come fight for our side!" It's one thing if the losing side offers these terms, but to force them on the losers just sucks. Especially when it's backed by "do this or die".
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Anaris

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #32: July 10, 2014, 04:08:33 PM »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Foxglove

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #33: July 10, 2014, 04:39:23 PM »
a "We must burn the Empire to the ground if it take a thousand years" attitude

That's never been Kindara's stance while Rosalind has been High Lady. I can't speak for what High Lords Edmund or Alpha's son said while they were in charge, but Rosalind has always told Velax that she doesn't object to the Empire existing in the north. But she wants the south to remain free. That's the stance of the majority of nobles in Kindara (and Cathay too, I think, but you'd have to ask them to be sure).

Rosalind's bottom line on surrender terms has always been to have a south free of the Empire, assurances that Kindara and Cathay won't be the perpetual target of one-sided wars by the whole of the Empire, and - since the glacier - enough territory to make Kindara a viable realm. When Rosalind first got elected she offered to return all Zonasan territory except Batesoar, Alanurs, and the region east of Masahakon (forgotten it's name), but Velax refused to settle on that because he wanted to fulfill his promise to Zonasa to give them all of their territory back.

So that's the history from the Kindaran side.

FWIW - I've never seen *any* terms or potential treaties related to the war on FEI. So far as I know, no one involved in the war has ever discussed any possible end to the war.

The last terms offered by Velax to Rosalind were as follows (and I'm trying my best to be accurate here, so apologies to Velax if I get anything wrong):

1) The return of all Zonasan regions.
2) Raising or lowering of all diplomatic relations to neutral with all realms.
3) Reparations of 500 or 600 gold for damage to something somewhere (apologies - I forget the specific place).
4) The death of Magnus Himoura (he's now left the island).
5) 3 or 4 other nobles named as enemies of the Empire have to migrate off the lsland (or was it just exiled from Kindara?)
6) Kindara attacks its ally Cathay and gets Imperial help to take Cathayan regions if needed.
7) Closure of all Order of the Elders temples (pretty sure that was in the last terms offered).

Like I say, I've tried to be 100% accurate there. So apologies if anything is wrong.

Velax

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #34: July 10, 2014, 04:47:03 PM »

Anaris

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #35: July 10, 2014, 04:53:15 PM »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Velax

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #36: July 10, 2014, 04:54:41 PM »
FWIW - I've never seen *any* terms or potential treaties related to the war on FEI. So far as I know, no one involved in the war has ever discussed any possible end to the war.

If it involves things like "Stay out of the war, at Peace or better with everyone on our side for 12 months", then it's [email protected]#$.

Other terms that I have come to realize are [email protected]#$ involve things like: "Abandon your allies. Declare war on them, and come fight for our side!" It's one thing if the losing side offers these terms, but to force them on the losers just sucks. Especially when it's backed by "do this or die".

Speak with your leaders. Terms have been discussed multiple times in the Assembly with Edan and Fergus, and Velax usually discusses them within Arcaea as well.

Foxglove

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #37: July 10, 2014, 05:48:43 PM »
you wanted more regions we'd help you take them from Cathay if you wished.

The betrayal of Cathay was the biggest sticking point there. There's also the point that if Kindara accepted peace but didn't want to take regions from Cathay, we might as well have wound up the realm anyway because it would have had no territory (remember that Haul and Taop are just on loan from Cathay). So the choices were: take land from Cathay. Or you can wind up your realm after peace. Or we can destroy you.

I should be absolutely clear here: if Kindara has an issue with the terms it was offered, then you are the unreasonable ones. It is the utter height of arrogance to claim that because there's no outcry over terms you personally think are unreasonable, there must be a double standard in the BM community.

It's also the height of arrogance for you to feel you personally know what are reasonable terms, isn't it?

I have to admit that my thinking here has been greatly coloured by the discussions around this subject that have been going on over in Might & Fealty. So it's probably unfair to bring them over here. To some extent, BM is running on an outmoded concept of what is reasonable and unreasonable terms, or what is appropriate in victory and defeat, that we've been trying to find ways to stamp out over in M&F. Where the emphasis is trying to be put on never giving the loser terms that will humiliate them (them seeing the terms as humiliating, that is) and several wars have been stopped because of it.

you make generalisations based on nothing. Most of those who are supposedly against the Empire likely aren't against "the Empire" at all.

No, they're not based on nothing. I've seen the OOC messages in the south where people are saying this. You haven't. Several players also gave it as the OOC reason for moving their characters off the island when the glaicer hit.

Once more, I have to say that most of the opinions I've written in this thread is based on what people have being saying over the past few months about the Imperial model and their dislike of it. You can either believe me or not *shrugs*

No, Rosalind's bottom line on surrender terms has been that you won't given back all the territory taken from Zonasa. That's been the one constant thread in all talks with Rosalind.

That was true before the glacier. But not afterwards. You've also ignored the parts where Rosalind wanted a free south, enough territory to make Kindara a viable realm without harming Cathay. And, most importantly, the part where she wanted assurances that Kindara wouldn't be the whipping boy of the entire Empire each time it wanted a war. To which Velax's response was, "Tough. Kindara should have joined the Empire when it had the chance."

Which would require Zonasa to abrogate its treaty of membership.

Depends where you draw the north/south line. We all use south, but it's probably no longer an accurate term since the glacier wiped off the south of the map. Maybe west or south west is more accurate.

Anyhoo, I have grocery shopping to do, so I might pick up on this thread later if I have the time. Although I'm preparing tonight for a vacation/holiday so I'm only likely to be semi-active at best for the next few days.

Velax

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #38: July 10, 2014, 06:06:34 PM »
The betrayal of Cathay was the biggest sticking point there. There's also the point that if Kindara accepted peace but didn't want to take regions from Cathay, we might as well have wound up the realm anyway because it would have had no territory (remember that Haul and Taop are just on loan from Cathay). So the choices were: take land from Cathay. Or you can wind up your realm after peace. Or we can destroy you.

So...what were you expecting? "You've been completely and utterly defeated after never even coming close to winning a war you started, so here, have some territory from my ally"?

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Anyhoo, I have grocery shopping to do, so I might pick up on this thread later if I have the time.

Yes, yes. We're all very convinced by your show of nonchalance.

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It's also the height of arrogance for you to feel you personally know what are reasonable terms, isn't it?

No. I'm commenting on one set of terms. You're commenting on an entire community.

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Where the emphasis is trying to be put on never giving the loser terms that will humiliate them (them seeing the terms as humiliating, that is) and several wars have been stopped because of it.

The losers in a war are going to see virtually any terms as humiliating, because they're the losers. I really don't know how many times I have to say this, but if giving back the territory you took after starting a war and then losing is too unreasonable for you, then there's really nothing we can do for you.

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No, they're not based on nothing. I've seen the OOC messages in the south where people are saying this. You haven't. Several players also gave it as the OOC reason for moving their characters off the island when the glaicer hit.

Once more, I have to say that most of the opinions I've written in this thread is based on what people have being saying over the past few months about the Imperial model and their dislike of it. You can either believe me or not *shrugs*

Wow, "several". "Several" sounds rather similar to the "handful" that I mentioned, doesn't it. Again, neither you, nor anyone in Kindara, even know what the Imperial model is. There's a term for people who dislike something without knowing anything about what it is.

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That was true before the glacier. But not afterwards. You've also ignored the parts where Rosalind wanted a free south, enough territory to make Kindara a viable realm without harming Cathay. And, most importantly, the part where she wanted assurances that Kindara wouldn't be the whipping boy of the entire Empire each time it wanted a war.

So...you start a war, lose it - badly - and then want terms whereby restrictions are put on the winners? And you want us to give you territory we'd have to force out of Zonasa? Yes, that sounds completely reasonable and completely in keeping with the established RP of this war.

Anaris

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #39: July 10, 2014, 06:12:04 PM »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Anaris

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #40: July 10, 2014, 06:12:41 PM »
Yes, yes. We're all very convinced by your show of nonchalance.

C'mon, Velax, that was uncalled for. RL is RL.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Indirik

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #41: July 10, 2014, 06:17:42 PM »
And again, you make generalisations based on nothing. Most of those who are supposedly against the Empire likely aren't against "the Empire" at all. They're against Arcaea, or Sorraine, or Coralynth, or Zonasa, either because we defeated them or because they're of that group of people who will always hate the strongest force on any island, for no reason other than because they're the strongest. Of the 46 non-Empire nobles left, I'd say the number of players whose sole reason for being in Kindara or Cathay is that they "hate the Empire model" make up a bare handful. And those who do likely do so despite the fact that they have no idea what the so-called Empire model even is. For that matter, do you?
Don't be too sure that everyone who is in the Empire actually *likes* the Empire. Or wants to be in the Empire. Or even cares about the Empire at all. I would venture to say that a very significant number of people in the Empire are in it ether because their ruler decided to be part of it, or they did it simply to avoid destruction of their realm.

My personal feeling is that an overall Empire model for FEI, assuming that Arcaea manages to establish an actual island-spanning Empire and make it stick, will be disastrous.

Edit: Fixed whacky quotes...
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 06:22:30 PM by Indirik »
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Velax

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #42: July 10, 2014, 06:21:56 PM »
C'mon, Velax, that was uncalled for. RL is RL.

Bleh, maybe. It just irritates me when people write multiple long replies but feel the need to end it with, "Oh, but I don't really care about this, so maybe I'll reply later, if I can be bothered". If you take the time to write half a dozen replies, it's obviously an issue you care about, so why pretend otherwise.

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #43: July 10, 2014, 06:25:24 PM »
Anyway, this war has unfortunately brought up something that is far too common and that is an accusation of cheating. I'm not sure if anyone ever did file a Titan report on it, and if not it would probably be far too late now as it was at least a couple of weeks ago. There's been an accusation flying round which essentially goes along the lines of "Zonasa sends nobles to Arcaea, changes allegiance, recruits masses of troops then switches back".

Personally, I wish people wouldn't fall back on such accusations when you're losing. It's bad form. Not to mention the fact that Tim's ruling Zonasa and he wouldn't let people get away with that. Then again, the person in question is also using that as an OOC reason for losing the war when really, it's just how things played out in-game. On an IC level, Malos at this point doesn't really care what happens so long as his own temples aren't sacked or closed, and he's also annoyed that certain people keep on with the line of "Priests can't be effective Lords or Dukes".

Velax

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Re: North Vs. South
« Reply #44: July 10, 2014, 06:26:02 PM »
Don't be too sure that everyone who is in the Empire actually *likes* the Empire. Or wants to be in the Empire. Or even cares about the Empire at all. I would venture to say that a very significant number of people in the Empire are in it ether because their ruler decided to be part of it, or they did it simply to avoid destruction of their realm.

Exactly! And the same holds true for the reverse. A very significant number of people in the Free Realms didn't know or care about the Empire at all and hold no opinion on the "Empire model", but just happened to be in the realms whose rulers chose to fight against the Empire.

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My personal feeling is that an overall Empire model for FEI, assuming that Arcaea manages to establish an actual island-spanning Empire and make it stick, will be disastrous.

Honestly, if it all goes to [email protected]#$, I'll just say, "Right, everyone drop relations to neutral and let's go back to the way things were".