East Continent OOC/Titans Issue

[Disturbedyang]

Also this is unacceptable:

*request from general

Sir Archer,

If you recruit infantry instead of archers, we will give you more gold.

You will still get gold however. If you want to switch over let me know.

Actually, I've seen Tom post somewhere before that things like that (offering gold if people will change their unit type) are perfectly legitimate.

Yes, i believe i have seen the same too. Giving higher priority for someone else to recruit certain units.

.... Fine I will break my silence, this is getting rather bothersome, seeing OOC ruin this game for so many.

Get it together...

If you want people to recruit a certain way do not order them to do so!

1. Make the message a request and to the entire realm
2. In the message state your thoughts on the unit that could be of use for the realm.
3. Simply state as the follows


*Request*
Nobles,

I believe archer units could greatly benefit our forces, and cut down our foes before we meet them, head on with our forces. Anyone who has a Archer unit or would like to get them let the treasury know we will assist in increasing your archer unit. It would greatly benefit the realm in the upcoming battle. Everyone with Infantry/Calvary/SF we need to make sure we have enough after the Archer cut them down. Please also send a request also and we will take care of your funding as well. After we've recruited a strong enough force rally in [Enter location]. Marshal's please remind your army's after turn change to send in their request.

Signed,

Average Joe
Lion General
Butter Rebellion

4. Note this is in no way a Order or a "Not a Order", it gives the choice to the Player and just places a thoughtful idea in those who would like to do so for a archer unit. It can be phrased a few different ways. Though it must be delicate as we are not suppose to push players to recruit a certain way.

5. Wonder what i'll have for lunch today

Great, now we have a template everyone else can use! Many thanks!

[Zakilevo]

Problem with IRs are they are not set in stone. Some people interpret in a different way and that may cause confusion among people. I believe rules that punish people so hard should be very clear. Then again, the page tells people to stay away from IRs.

Actually, I've seen Tom post somewhere before that things like that (offering gold if people will change their unit type) are perfectly legitimate.

Not to an individual. You can never request someone to change their unit type, especially as general and marshal.

[Anaris]

Also this is unacceptable:

*request from general

Sir Archer,

If you recruit infantry instead of archers, we will give you more gold.

You will still get gold however. If you want to switch over let me know.

This is very definitely acceptable, because of one specific part: recruiting infantry will get you more gold. That is not ordering or requesting a noble to change unit types, it is offering a specific incentive to do so. If the recipient had chosen to keep archers, he would still have gotten some gold, but recruiting infantry would have gotten him more. This is precisely the method Tom has recommended for years to encourage one unit type over another.

[Atanamir]

I want to bring this discussion again on a meta-level again as I like to think outside of the box.

I have noticed now in three realms on EC a big raise of OOC toxic and aggressive atmosphere within 1-2 weeks?

In all three cases it was a problem with the leadership style somehow and Titans got involved as far as I know.

And that happened in usually rather stable realms.

Coincidence?

Just looking at it from a broader view...

[Tom]

I have no idea what sort of investigation takes Titans to block or bann or whatever cause process transparency seems to be out of the Social Contract.

Yes, for a reason. I will be blunt: People are !@#$%^&s. Everyone who is involved in any kind of handing down judgement will get attacked, personally and often quite badly. Been there, done that. The intransparency is in order to protect the Titans from being abused as if they were child rapists, because nobody would do the job if that were the case.

If people who are accused and/or get punished were less like !@#$%^&s and more like adults about everything, that wouldn't be necessary. But we see time and again what the reactions are to something as omg-the-world-is-ending as a one-day account lock. !@#$storms, OOC flamewars, rage quitting, flooding the forum with personal attacks against the Titans, the Dev Team, Barack Obama and the world in general.

It would be funny if it weren't so sad.


And that is why the Titans act in secrecy, because it's not possible to do it in another way.

[Tom]

(and wouldn't presume to speak for Tom, though I suspect I know his answer)

Anyone who accuses me of doing anything whatsoever to gain any in-game advantages of any kind needs to check in with the nearest mental institution immediately, as I haven't actually played the game for two years or so. :-)

[Tom]

Based on the "Updated IR Comments" by Tom,

That was written after the judgment, so don't attack the Titans for something they couldn't know at the time they acted.

[Hinamoto]

Yes, for a reason. I will be blunt: People are !@#$%^&s. Everyone who is involved in any kind of handing down judgement will get attacked, personally and often quite badly. Been there, done that. The intransparency is in order to protect the Titans from being abused as if they were child rapists, because nobody would do the job if that were the case.

If people who are accused and/or get punished were less like !@#$%^&s and more like adults about everything, that wouldn't be necessary. But we see time and again what the reactions are to something as omg-the-world-is-ending as a one-day account lock. !@#$storms, OOC flamewars, rage quitting, flooding the forum with personal attacks against the Titans, the Dev Team, Barack Obama and the world in general.

If it were funny if it weren't so sad.


And that is why the Titans act in secrecy, because it's not possible to do it in another way.

Reporting ANYTHING to the titans should be when situation is completely out of control, when a person is so frantic that really makes other people get frustrated or sad or really ruins other person fun. Reporting a person for kindly requesting to pick certain type of unit mostly when there is a complete strategic basic completely logical and not trying to exploit any mechanic is a bunch of bull !@#$. I recall Galmel getting light bolted for stating that no one should assist a tournament in an enemy realm, wtf is that? He didnt ordered !@#$, he just stated something completely logical and got light bolted probably by the same lower mind that reported me.

You say that people are !@#$%^&s and i fully agree. I behaved like an !@#$%^&, fully and completely, but im not a bigger !@#$%^& than the guy reporting me or the one processing my reports. Im not a bigger !@#$%^& than those who never take any blame for a problem that this game is having and that is the constant losing of players.

Why my deletion brought all this attention? Exactly for that. Because now people questions the methods the owners use to solve situations, because they question if they would keep playing a game that DOES NOT PROTECT THE PRESTIGIOUS PLAYERS THEY HAVE and that actually contribute way more to the game than the complete and total !@#$%^& that is just waiting for letters to protest and complain to the titans.

You want a tip? Stop thinking like you never have the fault over everything that happens. The constant losing of players is you guys fault, and until you dont get a little bit of humility and acknowledge that its your fault you wont solve it at all.

Tom, you have created a MAGNIFICENT game, you are probably brilliant, but in all honestly, that kind of thinking will not solve this game's main problem.

[Zakilevo]

This is very definitely acceptable, because of one specific part: recruiting infantry will get you more gold. That is not ordering or requesting a noble to change unit types, it is offering a specific incentive to do so. If the recipient had chosen to keep archers, he would still have gotten some gold, but recruiting infantry would have gotten him more. This is precisely the method Tom has recommended for years to encourage one unit type over another.

Oh. This changes a lot...

[Anaris]

Reporting ANYTHING to the titans should be when situation is completely out of control, when a person is so frantic that really makes other people get frustrated or sad or really ruins other person fun.

No. Reporting to the Titans is when you see someone breaking the IR or violating the Social Contract.

If it's someone you know, or someone you believe you can confront about it personally (OOC) without serious repercussions to yourself, you are welcome to try to talk to them first, but that is not a requirement. As I already said, it is very important that the Titans protect people as if they were whistleblowers.

If someone is in a realm where you are in a position of power and feels you are abusing that power, it is absolutely wrong to insist that he confront you about it first. That is far too likely to lead to discrimination against him in future, even if he reports you and you are removed from power for it.

The Titans were never meant to be used only in times of total, unmitigated crisis. If that is part of why you are so upset about this, then I can understand your feelings, but it is absolutely vital that you realize that was a misunderstanding on your part.

[Zakilevo]

Again, Juan.

DOES NOT PROTECT THE PRESTIGIOUS PLAYERS THEY HAVE

Doesn't matter how long you've played this game for. What kind of accomplishments you have. If you've cross the line you get punished. Simple.

You might feel entitled for some kind of special treatment but all players are treated equal even between an extremely active player and a player who logs on once a week.

[Hinamoto]

It is IMPOSSIBLE to be in a position where you need to lead and not violate the IR or social contract at some point. What am i suppose to do, print it and have it pasted next to my computed and revise that any letter, request or order that i send does not touch any of that? Come on...

You need to think WHY is there a IR code and social contract and in which context should be used and applied. Titans need to contact a person reporting and ask them in which point of the one getting protested he/she felt bad or frustrated or his gaming getting ruined. Then contact the other part and tell them that a player is getting mad about the way of leading or acting and SHOW HIM the letter that caused the problem so the one getting reported understands what he did wrong. Does an OOC letter saying "I love you guys" really makes a person so upset to report that person? Then if there is a repetition of the same person protesting the same person you need the Titan to be able to judge if there is no personal beef against that person, to investigate who that player is. Is there a repetition of the same acting? I mean did he kept requesting that person to recruit the type of unit he needs? or does he keep requesting him not to enter that tournament? Or is the same protester reporting another thing completely different? Does it really makes his gaming time get ruined? A Titan must be able to judge those kind of things.

IR and Social Contract should be used as a guide to judge players behavious. Clearly if a player sends a letter requesting his marshals to see if their archer units can recruit other kind of units and even posting that everyone should be aware that those things cant be ordered is not harming or hurting anyone, and whoever reports that is just an !@#$%^& with a personal beef trying to OOC ruin the other person. Even a monkey would understand that.

Bottom line... If Titans are going to be the ones in charge of controlling the game athmosphere, they need to be people with a certain degree of judgement, and diplomacy. My case should serve as an example, of my wrong decissions and of the wrong course of actions taken by the game masters.

[Indirik]

It is IMPOSSIBLE to be in a position where you need to lead and not violate the IR or social contract at some point.

That's crap. In no way do you *ever* need to violate the IRs. There is no possible scenario where violating the IRs is *ever* acceptable, or unavoidable.

You need to think WHY is there a IR code and social contract and in which context should be used and applied. Titans need to contact a person reporting and ask them in which point of the one getting protested he/she felt bad or frustrated or his gaming getting ruined. Then contact the other part and tell them that a player is getting mad about the way of leading or acting and SHOW HIM the letter that caused the problem so the one getting reported understands what he did wrong.

Not gonna happen. No way. No how. The Titans are not mediators, or some kind of feel-good-dispute-resolution team. Displaying the particular message which sparked the report may not always be possible. For example, if a message was sent to one specific person, and that message was provided in the judgment, the person receiving the punishment would know exactly who reported them. Or perhaps they would only think they knew, because that person passed the letter to someone else, and that second person reported them.

Does an OOC letter saying "I love you guys" really makes a person so upset to report that person?

Show me a case where that happened. Make sure it uses those exact words, and is not liberally laced with profanity.

A Titan must be able to judge those kind of things.

What makes you think they don't already do that? From what I've read of this thread, you were the subject of multiple reports. How do you know that each case wasn't reported by a different person, or by multiple players?

[Zakilevo]

It is IMPOSSIBLE to be in a position where you need to lead and not violate the IR or social contract at some point. What am i suppose to do, print it and have it pasted next to my computed and revise that any letter, request or order that i send does not touch any of that? Come on...

You need to think WHY is there a IR code and social contract and in which context should be used and applied. Titans need to contact a person reporting and ask them in which point of the one getting protested he/she felt bad or frustrated or his gaming getting ruined. Then contact the other part and tell them that a player is getting mad about the way of leading or acting and SHOW HIM the letter that caused the problem so the one getting reported understands what he did wrong. Does an OOC letter saying "I love you guys" really makes a person so upset to report that person? Then if there is a repetition of the same person protesting the same person you need the Titan to be able to judge if there is no personal beef against that person, to investigate who that player is. Is there a repetition of the same acting? I mean did he kept requesting that person to recruit the type of unit he needs? or does he keep requesting him not to enter that tournament? Or is the same protester reporting another thing completely different? Does it really makes his gaming time get ruined? A Titan must be able to judge those kind of things.

IR and Social Contract should be used as a guide to judge players behavious. Clearly if a player sends a letter requesting his marshals to see if their archer units can recruit other kind of units and even posting that everyone should be aware that those things cant be ordered is not harming or hurting anyone, and whoever reports that is just an !@#$%^& with a personal beef trying to OOC ruin the other person. Even a monkey would understand that.

Bottom line... If Titans are going to be the ones in charge of controlling the game athmosphere, they need to be people with a certain degree of judgement, and diplomacy. My case should serve as an example, of my wrong decissions and of the wrong course of actions taken by the game masters.

I am sure your case will serve as an example. Like Tim said, he wants suggestions to improve the system.

Some of your points would be nice additions to how Titans should operate for sure. They shouldn't be punishing people before guiding them.

[Hinamoto]

That's crap. In no way do you *ever* need to violate the IRs. There is no possible scenario where violating the IRs is *ever* acceptable, or unavoidable.

Yes there is a case, when your whole realm believes that you (leader) requesting people to get infantry instead of archers is great, and the ones been requested are happy because their General/Marshals contacted them privately requesting them something and feel great about been able to help the realm other than just moving. There you go, a perfect example.

Not gonna happen. No way. No how. The Titans are not mediators, or some kind of feel-good-dispute-resolution team. Displaying the particular message which sparked the report may not always be possible. For example, if a message was sent to one specific person, and that message was provided in the judgment, the person receiving the punishment would know exactly who reported them. Or perhaps they would only think they knew, because that person passed the letter to someone else, and that second person reported them.

Then if Titans do not moderate, situations like this will keep happening. Players will keep feeling that they are treated like !@#$, over people that the IC exceeds their capabilities and just have a personal beef and needs to protest everything they can to have that "rival" punished somehow.

Show me a case where that happened. Make sure it uses those exact words, and is not liberally laced with profanity.
What makes you think they don't already do that? From what I've read of this thread, you were the subject of multiple reports. How do you know that each case wasn't reported by a different person, or by multiple players?

I cant show you anything cause i have deleted my account. (EDIT: erased a bunch of irrelevant information that would only bring more unnecesary drama)

As i have stated... Titans need to keep a balance between people really getting frustrated about other player's act and people with a personal beef or other goals for that protest. Titans need to moderate otherwise this will keep happening.