in game misogyny?

[Passeri]

Out of curiosity, how legit is it to the culture of the BM world to be a misogynist? Are opinions of 'women are weak' or 'women can't be rulers' acceptable? I know characters can be mustache-twirling-kitten-eating-bad-guys who have offensive opinions AND that does not mean that the players are evil schmucks too. But, in the culture of BM, is it cool to denigrate women solely based on their gender?

[Anaris]

Are opinions of 'women are weak' or 'women can't be rulers' acceptable?

No more nor less acceptable than the other players make them.

I know characters can be mustache-twirling-kitten-eating-bad-guys who have offensive opinions AND that does not mean that the players are evil schmucks too. But, in the culture of BM, is it cool to denigrate women solely based on their gender?

I don't think it's ever "cool" to do so. But while BM's flavour of "medieval" doesn't generally include the kind of misogyny that characterized the actual period, I see no reason why a given individual character in the game can't express such beliefs.

There's also no reason why any other character in his realm has to treat him as anything other than a dangerous lunatic.

[Cren]

I believe you are talking about my Taselak charry Fen'Harel. Its purely RP, if you read his backstory then you know the reason already.

So yes, it is not the culture of BM, it's just a single character and he has his own reasons. In BM male and female characters aren't biased and share equal rights.

[Graeth]

It seems to me that he made a flimsy back story so he can spam anti-woman hate speech into every other public letter sent out in the realm.  I've personally just started ignoring him, but I can see how others might be more offended.

[Cren]

It seems to me that he made a flimsy back story so he can spam anti-woman hate speech into every other public letter sent out in the realm.  I've personally just started ignoring him, but I can see how others might be more offended.

And now you're pointing fingers at the player, i.e, me. I encourage you to read messages of my other characters or at least ask players who play with me in other realms. If you think that I'm using a character to spread anti-woman hate speech then please do so as I don't like people to get a bad impression of me.

[vonGenf]

It seems to me that he made a flimsy back story

All back-stories are flimsy, and it is allowed to play a despicable character.

The real question is whether or not it is an IC device or crosses the line into OOC attitudes. If it refers to IC events and IC characters and is part of the game, there shouldn't be any issues. But the BM world is not like the actual medieval world was, and prejudice which is not founded in BM do not need to encroach in the game.

Some time ago there was a similar thread which you may like to read:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4346.0.html

Also:

The golden rule is this:

If someone contacts you and informs you that something did or said offended them, then politely apologize and modify your behavior accordingly. We're all friends here, and friends respect each other's sensibilities even if they're not shared.

[Cren]

I don't mean to offend, but that is the impression it gives off.  I have no experience with your other characters, but your character on the SI is a one dimensional misogynist who does nothing but spew anti-woman treatises.  I wonder if the titans would be so lax if it was someone expounding pseudo-Nazi propaganda or a hate for those with "black skin," even with a few sentences of backstory.  It certainly doesn't give a good impression for a game struggling to retain its players and attract new ones.

This is all IC and affects IC stuff only. There is no way I'm spreading an OOC propaganda through a character. He is a rather unique character and he has his own reasons to do stuff. I, the player, do not endorse or encourage such behaviour in RL in any possible way and I apologise to those whom I've offended in any way.

[Passeri]

I really do not intend any finger pointing at all. Please don't take it that way. There has been some more comments in a realm I play in and it just really took me by surprise. In my years of playing this game, and I have been playing since 2009, there have been very few instance where I have been offended as a female player. I know where my vulgarity button is.

And just to give BM the props it deserves: one of the things I like about it so much about this game is that it circumvents so much of the bs that you encounter as a woman in gaming culture. My success (or lack thereof) is not connected to my physical self. The dynamics of being a woman are totally different and really very freeing here. And most of the female players I've 'met' on BM are tough, and smart, and awesome.

[Anaris]

If someone contacts you and informs you that something did or said offended them, then politely apologize and modify your behavior accordingly. We're all friends here, and friends respect each other's sensibilities even if they're not shared.

This is not a bad rule of thumb, but it's also not complete. After all, that gives anyone who wants to give someone else a hard time a very simple way to do so: just claim that everything they do offends them.

See, there's another part to the rule besides "don't unnecessarily offend people." That part is "don't be unnecessarily easily offended."

To be absolutely clear: There is no prohibition within BattleMaster on roleplaying any kind of absolute bastard of a character, whether a sexist, a speciesist (racism would be pretty out of place, given that there's never, to my knowledge, been any explicitly roleplayed different races of humanity), or one who suffers from any other kind of ugly prejudice or nasty character traits.

As long as they abide by the general rules of roleplaying (that is, broadly, don't do anything bad to someone's character without their explicit approval or the game saying that it happened), it is up to the players to marginalize, ban, and otherwise ruin such characters in an in-character manner.

So once Taselak has a government, petition to have Fen'Harel banned. It's a small island, and no one can leave; a character that makes itself a pariah isn't likely to live long.

[Weylyn]

I don't mean to offend, but that is the impression it gives off.  I have no experience with your other characters, but your character on the SI is a one dimensional misogynist who does nothing but spew anti-woman treatises.  I wonder if the titans would be so lax if it was someone expounding pseudo-Nazi propaganda or a hate for those with "black skin," even with a few sentences of backstory.  It certainly doesn't give a good impression for a game struggling to retain its players and attract new ones.

 

Holy !@#$, that escalated quickly.

"I don't mean to offend, but..."

Any post that starts with that, or any variant of it, needs to not be posted. It's a dishonest opening by definition, because it announces that you are about to do whatever you claim you do not mean to do. Whenever a message starts with that sentence, whatever comes after can't be worth reading. You did mean to offend, and you knew that when you wrote it.

As for the rest, satisfying Godwin's Law in 6 posts isn't something to be proud of.

No one has a right to never be offended, despicable characters are not matters for the Titans. If you disapprove of a character, there is nothing stopping you from standing up to it with equal ferocity. Comparing someone to a Nazi on the forum, however, is never acceptable.

[Indirik]

So long as the prejudice is clearly defined as a character's IC prejudice aimed at a character/group, and not a player's OOC prejudice aimed at other players, then, barring any other notable circumstances, it is an acceptable roleplay as far as OOC rules are concerned.

For example, if the male character is equally prejudiced against all female characters regardless of who plays them, then it's OK. If they are prejudiced only against female characters of identifiably-female players (or all characters of identifiably-female players), then you've got a possible problem.

However, just because some particular RP line does not break any OOC rules doesn't mean that your character has to put up with it IG, regardless of your character's gender. There's no protection for that character just because their characterization is not against the OOC rules of the game. Feel free to do your best to persecute them for their misogyny/prejudice/bad breath/poor fashion. That RP line is just as valid.

You can send that player a private OOC message asking for clarification of their chosen RP direction. Feel free to express your opinion that perhaps they may have crossed some invisible line, and started to head into the realm of poor taste. They may not realize that this has happened.

If you just personally can't stand that character's RPs, then you can make use of the "Ignore" link on every message. Or move to a different realm, and then use their prejudice/misogyny as propaganda to get that realm wiped out.

[Blue Star]

O_O is that Passeri posting! How are you!

Ah, mm i'd say once in awhile you do see the occasional post, it that seems a bit overboard, but I usually ignore those. I get your point though like Gernous mentioned the Golden rule of thumb is best followed or best for people to Error on the side of Caution. Especially posting such.

Where did I put my keys

[Jens Namtrah]

People should sometimes take a moment to consider what the impact of their RP design has on the real-world players.

There is a virtually unlimited number of ideas to chose from when creating a character's personality; expecting a person to put up with your RP because it isn't really you might be more than you have the right to ask of your friends.

Can you imagine sitting at a table with a group of black friends and pretending you are a slave trader? Sitting with a group of Jewish friends and pretending you are a Nazi?

It is your right to RP as you like, but perhaps you want to think of a new personae.

[Cren]

You know, some of you are being too jumpy. All he has done is actively oppose women who want a position of power. Because he believes that women aren't worthy of being a ruler or anything, let alone of a realm like Taselak that respects strength above all. And that they'll ruin everything just like women have ruined his family and childhood. He has his own reasons just like I've my own reasons to create a character who has a bad trait on a 21st century outlook. If you can't tolerate this little bit then I don't know...

[Cren]

And if those playing alongside me in Taselak had any problems with that, you could always contact me in game rather than creating a forum topic. Only one player has so far asked me and I've toned down Fen'Harel's hatred towards women.