Author Topic: Fix Taxes Please  (Read 4276 times)

Gustav Kuriga

  • Guest
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #15: May 29, 2011, 06:40:03 AM »
And this would lead to people cashing out all their bonds for gold on tax day, so they would never have to pay the taxes.

No.

And this is different from how people usually play how? The only bonds I ever have are the ones from taxes while on campaign. Also, if someone hoards golds instead of bonds, they get taxed for gold. If this change were implemented, while you may be able to hoard gold for all eternity if you were to get outside the reach of the taxman for gold (which, from what I have seen, has only been suggested for prison), you could only receive bonds as you would more than likely be outside your duchy and thus receiving bonds anyways. Which would be taxed.

Anaris

  • BM Dev Team
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8053
    • View Profile
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #16: May 29, 2011, 03:29:33 PM »
And this is different from how people usually play how? The only bonds I ever have are the ones from taxes while on campaign. Also, if someone hoards golds instead of bonds, they get taxed for gold. If this change were implemented, while you may be able to hoard gold for all eternity if you were to get outside the reach of the taxman for gold (which, from what I have seen, has only been suggested for prison), you could only receive bonds as you would more than likely be outside your duchy and thus receiving bonds anyways. Which would be taxed.

I'm not sure what you're saying happens here.  Right now, bonds and gold both get taxed equally.  If you have 200 gold, and the tax rate is 20% over 100, you'll get taxed 20 gold.  If you have 200 bonds, with the same tax rate, you'll get taxed 20 bonds.

As things stand, if you have over 200 gold + bonds under that tax rate, you will get taxed something.  You can't just choose to pay no taxes this week by dumping it all into gold.

Under your proposal, anyone who doesn't feel like paying taxes will be able to dump all their money into gold just before tax day and pay no taxes that week.

So, again: no.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Gustav Kuriga

  • Guest
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #17: May 29, 2011, 04:01:55 PM »
I wasn't making a proposal, I was writing an example based on the example given by vonGenf. "This change" does not refer to my post, so please don't take it as such.

vonGenf

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
    • View Profile
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #18: May 29, 2011, 07:10:42 PM »
Under your proposal, anyone who doesn't feel like paying taxes will be able to dump all their money into gold just before tax day and pay no taxes that week.

No, and I truly don't understand how you could read that from my example. Could you explain it to me please?

If you're worried about people going into negative bond numbers, there should be a steep honour drop accompanying that.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Anaris

  • BM Dev Team
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8053
    • View Profile
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #19: May 30, 2011, 02:03:28 AM »
No, and I truly don't understand how you could read that from my example. Could you explain it to me please?

If you're worried about people going into negative bond numbers, there should be a steep honour drop accompanying that.

If they have no bonds, what are they going to pay?
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3831
    • View Profile
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #20: May 30, 2011, 02:31:30 AM »
No, and I truly don't understand how you could read that from my example. Could you explain it to me please?

If you're worried about people going into negative bond numbers, there should be a steep honour drop accompanying that.

So we would have to start worrying about managing the amount of bonds we hold at all times to ensure we can cover any taxation requirement? Sounds like just one more pointless thing to worry about for casual players.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Artemesia

  • Testers
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1724
  • Just a normal family
    • View Profile
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #21: May 30, 2011, 07:18:52 AM »
Well if it's avoiding the realm's taxes you're wondering about, I think taxes are set to greater than, not greater than or equal to, and it counts the separate values of gold and bonds, and taxes one of them that overflows, rather than the total. I could be wrong on this though.

What does this mean? Let's say your realm has a 25% tax on anything over 100 gold. Theoretically that would mean you would have at most either 100 gold or 100 bonds. I think, but I've never actually made my own attempt, just looked at the Information\Check Taxes screen, that if you have 200 gold and split it 100 gold and 100 bonds, you don't get taxed.

vonGenf

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
    • View Profile
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #22: May 30, 2011, 09:22:18 AM »
If they have no bonds, what are they going to pay?

Then they get zero income. And negative bonds. And probably an honour loss.

Seriously, the only scenario where this is possible is one where your total taxes exceed your income. How often does that happen? And if you managed to amass such a sum, shouldn't it be possible to actually put it away for a while?
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Foundation

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Okay... you got me
    • View Profile
    • White Halmos
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #23: May 30, 2011, 09:34:39 PM »
Then they get zero income. And negative bonds. And probably an honour loss.

Seriously, the only scenario where this is possible is one where your total taxes exceed your income. How often does that happen? And if you managed to amass such a sum, shouldn't it be possible to actually put it away for a while?

Negative bonds aren't desirable to implement.  How does it make sense for you to carry loads of gold, and a tax collector comes and says "well, okay, I see you have gold, but I don't like that, I like paper instead"?
The above is accurate 25% of the time, truthful 50% of the time, and facetious 100% of the time.

vonGenf

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
    • View Profile
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #24: May 31, 2011, 10:50:30 AM »
Negative bonds aren't desirable to implement.  How does it make sense for you to carry loads of gold, and a tax collector comes and says "well, okay, I see you have gold, but I don't like that, I like paper instead"?

Please read the beginning of the thread.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Foundation

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Okay... you got me
    • View Profile
    • White Halmos
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #25: June 01, 2011, 04:53:37 AM »
Please read the beginning of the thread.

I have been following this entire thread.  Yes, it does not make sense for tax collectors to come into prison.  I'm simply pointing out that neither does the proposal make sense.
The above is accurate 25% of the time, truthful 50% of the time, and facetious 100% of the time.

Artemesia

  • Testers
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1724
  • Just a normal family
    • View Profile
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #26: June 01, 2011, 12:09:40 PM »
Oh, I once hit negative gold. It had to do with something weird with the prison teleportation and one of the infiltrating options not checking for gold. It was weird, and I have no idea what would have happened there.

Anyway, I think what people don't like is how their gold gets eaten into while they're on the field. Meh, go to another realm or figure out how to balance the income.

vonGenf

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
    • View Profile
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #27: June 01, 2011, 01:17:20 PM »
Meh, go to another realm or figure out how to balance the income.

It's hard to do this realistically.

For example, considering the time it takes to move from one realm to another, you cannot "flee the tax collector", unless you pledge allegiance to the realm next door.

I would imagine Liberian tax collectors have a hard time to reach Ruins of Walfurgisnacht, but apparently they do so easily.

It would be nice if there some way to hide from the tax collectors. It doesn't have to be easy.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10849
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #28: June 01, 2011, 02:29:11 PM »
  • Guilds
  • Secret Societies
  • Religions
  • Trade
  • Family Gold
  • Investments
  • Balancing gold/bonds carried
I'm sure I have missed (or deliberately excluded? :P ) some options.

And if you think that these options only enable the rich and powerful to evade taxes, you're correct. Just like in the Real World, the rich and powerful make the laws, and these laws naturally favor themselves. Besides, if it was easy to evade taxes, and everyone could do it, then no one would pay taxes, making them useless.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

vonGenf

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 2331
    • View Profile
Re: Fix Taxes Please
« Reply #29: June 01, 2011, 04:55:05 PM »
Oh, it's very easy to evade taxes when you are sitting in your capital and working with official institutions.

Strangely, however, when you are in the wilderness on the other side of the world, then it becomes extremely difficult. Taxes collectors are so busy travelling there to get your gold, that must be why they miss all the tax evaders in the capital.  :P
After all it's a roleplaying game.