A change to cavalry charges (distance, not damage)

[Velax]

I've been noticing a recurring problem with cavalry charges. Namely, if the enemy unit is three lines away from a cavalry unit and moves forward one line, that friendly cavalry unit will move forward two lines and hit the enemy without charging. It seems particularly common when fighting monsters/undead for some reason, but happens in normal battles too. From a common sense perspective, it's a bit off. Cavalry don't just wander forward until they walk into an enemy unit; they'll see the enemy from a distance and charge into them.

An example from a recent battle:

(47-P)     (22-I)                          (21-I)
(21-C)     (23-I)                          (5-I)
                (16-I)        EMPTY        (2-I)
                (17-I)         LINE          (15-I)
                (60-I)                           (34-I)     
                (11-A)                          (32-I)
                (21-I)                           (11-S)

   
Personal Bodyguard (6) ride on, closing in on the defenders.
Broken Crowns (1), Peasant Militia (5), Copper Guard (2), Zarius Zurelions (9), Iron Guard (4), Secret Pumas (7) and Front Liners (3) advance towards the enemy.
Knights Of Anhanger (11), Royal Caesarion Greatswordsmen (12), Chosen Meliorist Swordsmen (10), ~~V~~ (16), The Wolves (15), The Cohort of Purification (14) and The Cobalt Guard (13) advance towards the enemy.

Close Combat (Center Line):
Personal Bodyguard (6) score 314 hits on The Cobalt Guard (13). - That's definitely not charge damage from a 420 CS cavalry unit.

Could a change be implemented that makes cavalry move last, so the game can determine if enemy units will be in charge range this battle turn and so allow cavalry to charge, rather than walking into the enemy and doing a normal attack.

[BardicNerd]

Could a change be implemented that makes cavalry move last, so the game can determine if enemy units will be in charge range this battle turn and so allow cavalry to charge, rather than walking into the enemy and doing a normal attack.

That would sadly create another problem, if the cavalry is one line away, then the enemy will move onto them, and the cavalry will then not move and therefore not charge.


This is a problem, though, I've seen it before, and recently had to tell my marshal that we really didn't want those line settings, because it meant our cavalry would not get a charge bonus (and since about a quarter of our CS was cavalry, this is pretty important).  If this could somehow be fixed, I would love the devs forever.

[Velax]

Alright then, here's a better fix:

Did cavalry move this turn?
          Yes
                  Charge
          No
                  Did cavalry move last turn?
                           Yes
                                    Was cavalry involved in close combat last turn?
                                             Yes
                                                      No charge
                                             No
                                                      Charge
                           No
                                    No charge

[Chenier]

Or:

Did the cavalry unit land a hit yet?

Yes: No charge bonus.
No: Charge bonus.

Simpler?

[BardicNerd]

Or:

Did the cavalry unit land a hit yet?

Yes: No charge bonus.
No: Charge bonus.

Simpler?

Cavalry can charge multiple times per battle -- basically, they are supposed to charge any time they have moved and engage in combat on the same turn.

[egamma]

(47-P)     (22-I)                          (21-I)
(21-C)     (23-I)                          (5-I)
                (16-I)        EMPTY        (2-I)
                (17-I)         LINE          (15-I)
                (60-I)                           (34-I)     
                (11-A)                          (32-I)
                (21-I)                           (11-S)

   
Personal Bodyguard (6) ride on, closing in on the defenders.
Broken Crowns (1), Peasant Militia (5), Copper Guard (2), Zarius Zurelions (9), Iron Guard (4), Secret Pumas (7) and Front Liners (3) advance towards the enemy.
Knights Of Anhanger (11), Royal Caesarion Greatswordsmen (12), Chosen Meliorist Swordsmen (10), ~~V~~ (16), The Wolves (15), The Cohort of Purification (14) and The Cobalt Guard (13) advance towards the enemy.

Close Combat (Center Line):
Personal Bodyguard (6) score 314 hits on The Cobalt Guard (13).

The problem is that the cavalry advanced two rows, arrived in the center, and then the infantry advanced to meet them. That's not a charge--think of the battle of Helm's deep, when Gandalf arrived--now THAT is a charge!

The problem with the scenario above is that the cavalry were set to aggressive, which forces them to advance two rows. They did so, but they didn't end up in a row occupied by the enemy at the beginning of the turn--thus, no charge into the waiting lances. The infantry advanced to meet the cavalry, in other words.

I think setting the cavalry to normal may have corrected this--not sure.

Assuming that a fix is possible, it would be the following logic:
If the enemy is on your line, attack
If the enemy is 1 space away, charge
If the enemy is 2 spaces away, charge
If the enemy is 3 spaces away, advance 1 row
Otherwise, advance 2 rows

[Velax]

The problem is that the cavalry advanced two rows, arrived in the center, and then the infantry advanced to meet them. That's not a charge--think of the battle of Helm's deep, when Gandalf arrived--now THAT is a charge!

You need to remember that in reality, units don't move in turns. Cavalry don't advance 10 metres, stop and then wait for the enemy infantry to walk into them. It would be a continual walk/trot/gallop/whatever that would be increased to a charge as soon as the enemy were in range.

I don't see what the problem is with using the logic, "If cavalry moved this turn, give charge bonus. If cavalry moved last turn but did not attack, give charge bonus." It's pretty simple.

[Shizzle]

On a side note: if an infantry unit is moving when charged upon, wouldn't it logically suffer more damage? No matter how well organised, just marching will cause the formation to be less effective (perhaps this is just Total War bias though )

[Stue (DC)]

 this looks as reinventing wheel to me.

game about how cavalry will charge and will it charge at all i remember from two years time.

there is a way how you can try to make your cavalry charge, but there is the way enemy marshal can attempt to prevent it, and that is battle of marshals wills and skills, not something that devs should resolve implementing automatism. that was actually one of the most thrilling parts of battle preparations. marshals and generals have to assume what other side will do and adjust their settings accordingly, but battle will show what was actually implemented, and nonone can guarantee that things will go way how you imagined them

i will recall some important remark from previous days of d-list: "cavalry charge" is only name of marshals formation which provides specific position of different troops, it does not guarantee the charge, not a single charge in battle, all depends on circumstances.

i am willing to offer one advice only, all the rest comes on you to discover it: to attempt some very specific results you plan for some battle, sometimes there is no formation that will achieve that, you need to go with troop settings but without formation.

[Velax]

You're missing the point entirely. It makes no sense for cavalry to stand still and wait for enemy infantry to walk into them. Why would that ever happen? Please, give me an example of any battle in history where a unit of cavalry saw the enemy, then deliberately stopped and let that enemy just walk into them without even trying to charge first, without there being some sort of greater motive or trap behind it.

Messing around with marshal settings to try to fix this is just a work around for a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

[Stue (DC)]

i think that you are missing the point of charge a bit.

you clearly described that cavalry moved two rows, so why you are saying now that they stand still?
they moved two rows, but did not reach the enemy, so they were unable to charge, therefore everything works completely as intended and known.

you have to understand that charge has to happen within that two-row movement, if there is nobody on their way, poor cavalrymen can only enter normal melee. you cannot have additional one row movement within the same turn, as that would be three-row charge.

[Telrunya]

But during a battle they don't move in turns. It's not like everyone stands still and then goes 'Archers shoot now please', 'ok they all fired their bows, now you can move'. It all happens continuously. In one turn Cavalry can move two rows yes, but that doesn't mean they then stop moving and wait till everyone else is done and the turn is over. The turns are merely a way for the game to represent what happens in battles as they progress. In one turn, Cavalry can move at a speed of two rows. In reality, Cavalry would never stop moving. They simply can't go faster then two rows / turn. If they travel three rows then that takes them two turns, but during that movement they never come to an halt, even if an Infantry unit moves up. That Infantry unit would still meet the Cavalry while it's charging across the battlefield. That's what is trying to be said.

[Gustav Kuriga]

But during a battle they don't move in turns. It's not like everyone stands still and then goes 'Archers shoot now please', 'ok they all fired their bows, now you can move'. It all happens continuously. In one turn Cavalry can move two rows yes, but that doesn't mean they then stop moving and wait till everyone else is done and the turn is over. The turns are merely a way for the game to represent what happens in battles as they progress. In one turn, Cavalry can move at a speed of two rows. In reality, Cavalry would never stop moving. They simply can't go faster then two rows / turn. If they travel three rows then that takes them two turns, but during that movement they never come to an halt, even if an Infantry unit moves up. That Infantry unit would still meet the Cavalry while it's charging across the battlefield. That's what is trying to be said.

True, but what he is saying is that it is not counting for a charge in the first place, so it seems like the cavalry just waited for the infantry to engage with them.

[Velax]

No, Telrunya is saying the same thing as me. Cavalry don't actually stop between turns; they're still moving. But the game treats them as having stopped, so they lose their charge when another unit walks into them.

[Stue (DC)]

But during a battle they don't move in turns. It's not like everyone stands still and then goes 'Archers shoot now please', 'ok they all fired their bows, now you can move'. It all happens continuously. In one turn Cavalry can move two rows yes, but that doesn't mean they then stop moving and wait till everyone else is done and the turn is over. The turns are merely a way for the game to represent what happens in battles as they progress. In one turn, Cavalry can move at a speed of two rows. In reality, Cavalry would never stop moving. They simply can't go faster then two rows / turn. If they travel three rows then that takes them two turns, but during that movement they never come to an halt, even if an Infantry unit moves up. That Infantry unit would still meet the Cavalry while it's charging across the battlefield. That's what is trying to be said.

?! Every troop  stops moving at every turn, that is what turns are, and each turn is resolved by itself, beginning where previous turn stopped  what you describe as continuous movement would be some animated real-time battle that has nothing to do with bm.