Player of Atanamirs account lock.

[Miriam Ics]

I have not had time to read it before, and did not even know that the discussion was going on, but I'm glad that to happen because I believe something like this event needs to be talked about openly, or he will remain a ghost, haunting us forever.
I've been busy this past week and even paused a few characters. Among the last messages that I saw in the EC was one sent by Alex, one OOC message saying something about me and it was so unimportant that I could never imagine that that message would start this mess.
Now I had read it all, and I am sad because more people left the game, and others are angry about all this.

I am sad to see Alex go, because he is a old player, obviously dedicated to the game, someone that was a reference for many players, but also someone that was so involved with the game to a point that he harmed some people.
I was sad also when Jason (Dobromir) left the game. After this, Alex and I never talked again. He knew I did not like what he did and we had a silent agreement to keep distance.
I choose to play at same realm as him to try to see that other Alex, the one that is loved, great strategist and etc., and I need to say I was not disappointed with him.

Recently I started a topic to thank Tim, Tom and the devs but specifically Tim, for the WI and his continuous work at BM, that allow us to play this awesome game. I started it after reading some OOC talks from some players, including Alex, where they insinuate that the Titans and the devs had favoritism for players or realms.
What I was trying to say is: If I play this game, and I trust you to be the developer of it, I trust you also to make the rules, and to make decisions to make the game better, even if this means that you will ban someone.
I am posting this again here because I think this is the main point. In all those years that I play the game, I never saw a unfair decision by the devs. This last one, is not unfair. Is strict, yes. Is definitive and I am sure that is hard for them too to see a 10 years player going away but, they gave him more than one chance to change.

What is important now is that, if Alex love this game as much as I believe he does, he can try to come back, with a new account and start over. To start over is not a issue, and shouldn't ever be a issue to anyone. He did a huge investment in his family, did he create a awesome char? He is more than capable of creating a new one.
Is not easy, I know that, but is not like he is really dead, right?

What I believe is important, is that we need to try harder to separate IC and OOC and try to play each char as a totally new one, leaving behind the old tricks and failures of the old chars. Also try to give to the other players a new chance, every time we meet them IC. We still have this huge eye over here to remind us that we need to play nice with each other.

I can imagine how hard it is for everyone that invested so much time on this game to see the numbers of the database going down, but, I am sure, they do everything they can to change this. What is important now, is to help them to do this.

[LilWolf]

I really think the culture and attitude of the players as a whole has changed dramatically. Seeing and hearing what has been going on on the War Island just makes me shake my head. The !@#$ that's going on there wouldn't have happened 10 years ago. There's so much OOC crap, whining, open hostility between players and just plain horrible atmosphere. It has just about brought out the worst in BM.

I don't think any of the three realms on the War Island has managed to go without having massive internal strife, both IC and OOC.

I still remember when Colonies opened and there was a rush to get there. I started out in Giblot I think. We elected our council and got to taking over regions. Not much strife there, just people selecting their leaders and then standing behind them. Compare it to the War Island opening now and it's like night and day. Heck, even the Dwilight opening was much smoother and friendlier. Sure, there were arguments, but they were mostly IC. But people came to the realms, elected their council and got to work. You fairly quickly had the sense you were playing as a team.

There seems to be this "screw everyone else, I want that and I'm going to get it." attitude that makes players go to great lengths to get what they want. There doesn't seem to be any of that old "I'm on this team. Let's kill those other guys."

I don't know how or when that change happened, but it has happened. Atanamir..well, for many years he played the game just fine. No problems. Then in the past year or two he somehow managed to change into someone who got permanently banned from the game. I doubt that would have happened had the community around him not also changed.

I don't know. Bit of rant. Take from it what you want..

[Buffalkill]

I think the ideal thing would be to have some kind of big BattleMaster get-together, where everyone can actually meet the players on the other side, and learn to see them as real people. I know small events of this nature have happened in the past, but I'm skeptical that one could be organized that's large enough to ensure that it reaches enough of the prominent players on opposite sides of these entrenched conflicts.

More ideas are welcome. And if someone wants to try to persuade me that any of these ideas I'm rejecting are more workable than I think, I'm willing to consider it, too

Maybe pick out 4-6 regions in the world that have the most BM players and organize simultaneous get-togethers in those places and connect them by video link.

[Logar]

I have often thought how great it would be to attend a RL group BM gathering. The simultanious gatherings I think is a good idea, broadening the catchment area. I would be up for it if I didnt have to travel half way around the world.

[Menethil]

Greetings everyone.  I am not going to comment of my opinion of thoughts on the player of Alex after what happened because it wouldnt be fair to him and negative opinions on other players dont help in anyway.

Basically all the issues that battlemaster has is a simple lack of respect and greedyness of a minority of players.  Back when i used to play players respected people in higher positions.  They would take the lowly knight class as a lowly knight class and not speak up to their lords.  Sadly creating new character does nothing to erase the knowledge the player does have of the game and indirectly people use this knowledge to try and get what they want.

Take scenario 1.  A player wants to gain positions in x time.  He begins in the realm and is very vocal making sure he is heard and becomes popular.   He will target x noble from that realm simply because he wants his position and either directly or more subtly will make the person miserable IC.  This scenario considering the small player base is almost definately discussed OOC between friend groups (everyone knows they exist) and they help each other to achieve this goal.

Scenario 2.  The player who creates an account to just cause chaos.  Basically they make a character in the realm soley for undermining everything and causing chaos.  I think going to a realm with this intention is a very very bad thing because by nature Knights are supposed to be loyal at the start.  If events happen that turn them than thats another story completely.

There are many more scenarios I am briefly bringing up two to make a simple point.  Basically in both one party or the other is going to get annoyed IC and likely OOC.  The player doing this has a goal if it fails hes going to be quite angry about it.  If he succeeds the people targetted will likely feel targetted and want to lash back out in what normally starts all the OOC arguements.

Battlemaster would improve if people toned down targetting.  This also has to do with people making family fueds.  I dont agree this should happen unless both players agree they would like this.  I understand family feuds are a thing but in the end everyone here is a person and people do get tied with their characters and have issues making character separation.  This is why when the general player wants to do something to another I think there needs to be a mutual agreement on it.

I know i may not have expressed my point across clearly.  The best example i can give is someone wants to play ball with you and you really dont want to and he keeps insisting and insisting and you are forced to in the end.  Thats how alot of situations occur starting on a bad foot and it goes sour from there.

Either way this is my two cents.  About me.  No im not currently playing the game and havent since I quit a year ago.  I am however considering returning now.  I havent fully decided on the matter.

[Anaris]

(And just for clarity's sake, for those who don't know, Miriam Ics is the player of the character who moved into Hagley but did not start a battle, thus sparking off this incident, and Menethil is the former player of Dobromir, as mentioned earlier in the thread.)

[Thorryworry]

A few things :

I'm Thor ( yes my real first name ) from Belgium, playing 8 years now in the Jorvik family.

LOL.... wasn't BM Tom's social experiment in the first place? All this is exactly what happens in the real world now. We used to look up to teachers and presidents, but now everything is "chaos".

I would love to see Alex come back under a new name and start fresh.

Miriam, I loved your post, honest and still with respect for Alex. Thx for that X

BM Con 14 ? YES oh YES : I dreamed, years ago, when I also dreamed winning the lotto that I could host such an event, giving players incentive to come ( like paying for the flight or the hotel ). But a convention on every continent can work. I hope we can look into that.

About WI : It's chaos every where but that will go away. I rather put everyone randomly in a realm and start from there.

About the future : maybe less chars, so we need to invest in that char? Random realm choosing? Get more to the basics like fighting and not so much armies, duchies, Dukes with only titles and no cities? Maybe just go back to less details??

Well it seems BM can rise out of this turmoul... I for one believe it can.

Btw Alex ... I'll miss ya

[m2rt]

This decision has driven away more players than Alex supposedly has.

Another one bites the dust:


after that many Perdan players have quit or paused.
I ll do the same after 11 years of playing.
BM is not for me anymore.
Dionyssis Klavdianos

[Zakilevo]

This decision has driven away more players than Alex supposedly has.

Another one bites the dust:


after that many Perdan players have quit or paused.
I ll do the same after 11 years of playing.
BM is not for me anymore.
Dionyssis Klavdianos

Sad to see people leave but what has been done had to be done. Things will settle down eventually.

[Blue Star]

Greetings everyone.  I am not going to comment of my opinion of thoughts on the player of Alex after what happened because it wouldnt be fair to him and negative opinions on other players dont help in anyway.

That entire rant seemed to be your opinion on Alex... also, those scenarios are oddly enough depressing.

@Lilwolf... it's already ingrained


On another note, yes as M2rt state this has touched a nerve.

Tally for Character Losses:
Noble has left   (17 hours, 53 minutes ago)
The player of Saul has left the game, the character is therefore deleted.

Noble has left   (10 hours, 46 minutes ago)
The player of Gurgulithras has left the game, the character is therefore deleted.

Lord Pauses   (7 hours, 13 minutes ago)
message to all nobles of Perdan
Sean Shaffer, the player of Lodu Eirikr, has paused her for an indefinite period.

Knight Pauses   (5 hours, 47 minutes ago) (Wouter paused all his Character on all Islands)
message to all nobles of Perdan
Wouter Eitjes, the player of Pablo D`Este, has paused him for an indefinite period.

Erdogan Halimi, the player of Sinan Kalkandelen, has paused him for an indefinite period.
Due to pausing, he loses the following

and more to follow it seems...

[trying]

Good. Then all of the people that allowed this  to go on for so long will be gone.

[Eirikr]

Lord Pauses   (7 hours, 13 minutes ago)
message to all nobles of Perdan
Sean Shaffer, the player of Lodu Eirikr, has paused her for an indefinite period.

Please stop including my name on this list. I have not departed the game, but continue to play elsewhere. I simply have no desire to play in Perdan when I see a majority of letters being OOC, particularly when they are also unwilling to respect the Titans decision. Please note: Disagreement and respect are two different things.

[jaune]

Good. Then all of the people that allowed this  to go on for so long will be gone.

Yes, less the players more fun for you.

[m2rt]

Sad to see people leave but what has been done had to be done. Things will settle down eventually.

I do not agree on the "had to be done" part.

Quoting Anaris..

It started with Dobromir and Deytheur, whom he believed had begun a RL relationship.

It wasnt about that, it was about that they acted suspicously and looked like they OOC cheated. I was there, it was suspicious. True, not wise to accuse someone publicly... Really bad to go personal and OOC... I usually avoid OOC alltogether...

But it wasn't long before he was doing more of the same. Reporting suspected clans to the Titans is fine, but not when you send 4 or 5 reports within a week just to say, "Hey, why haven't you locked them all yet? I found them for you, that should be all the evidence you need!" (Not in those words, obviously, but that was the implication.) And then when the Titans didn't act fast enough to lock those he thought were clan members, he just made up bogus IC reasons to ban them from Perdan

Uhm. He did what a good King does. These OOC cheaters were ruining the game! I myself would have banned them so others have a good experience. Note that later the titans did lock some of them. Seriously, these guys were ruining our fun. And now Anaris says we should let cheaters play and shut up? If the titans cant handle the workload, then get more titans. Seriously man?

Loot at BM description: "we dislike cheaters and abusers, and players and GameMasters cooperate on removing them."

The most recent incident was the last straw. Miriam, whom I know both of you know from IRC, and I think it's absolutely clear she would never knowingly abuse a bug in any way, had a character move into a region where Alex thought she should have sparked a battle. He immediately took to the airwaves, broadcasting all across the EC that anyone who dared to move into that region now would be obviously exploiting a bug, and thus abusing the game (due to the fact that there should have been a battle, thus giving someone-or-other an advantage they shouldn't have had).

So it was the last straw that your friend got involved? I know Miriam and like her. But that means nothing! If Alex thought it was a bug it was his RIGHT and obligation as a good player to share this information. The correct thing would have been to tell him off, that he is wrong. NOT LOCK HIM! He thought he did the right thing, if people are wrong, then you teach them. NOT SHOOT THEM IN THE FACE! Because thats what you did.

And about people leaving, I know atleast 6 people who are already on the verge of leaving. One actually said to be around only for the donation to wear off... Good old players, donators. Going away. Why? The reasons are not enough for me...

Thank you for allowing me to blow off some steam. Without that I would have pushed the delete button already.

And remember people, things are not black and white. If a person does so much good, then if he slips, you help him up and teach him to not do bad, because of all the good he has done. Not call him cancer and toxic and what not.

That is the reason I am holding my emotions back Timothy, because you have made so much good. But now you have made a bad thing. Learn from it please. With great power comes great responsibility.

All this is just depressing, we lost great people to play with. Friends. 

[Zakilevo]

And remember people, things are not black and white. If a person does so much good, then if he slips, you help him up and teach him to not do bad, because of all the good he has done. Not call him cancer and toxic and what not.

So how many times do you expect the dev and titans to teach him not do bad? I think you are forgetting the fact he has harassed people MULTIPLE times. The ban wasn't about just last action. I think some of you are forgetting the fact he has done this over the years. It is not about what he did over a month or two.

He was also accusing perfectly normal players as cheaters because they weren't following his orders all the time or they were playing against him. If you report people every time you play against them, there is a huge problem. I believe Alex was one of the most frequent reporters of the game.

He was a dedicated player but I believe he was way too dedicated. Maybe to the degree of obsession. When you start taking things too personally maybe it is your time to take a few steps back.

So it was the last straw that your friend got involved? I know Miriam and like her. But that means nothing! If Alex thought it was a bug it was his RIGHT and obligation as a good player to share this information. The correct thing would have been to tell him off, that he is wrong. NOT LOCK HIM! He thought he did the right thing, if people are wrong, then you teach them. NOT SHOOT THEM IN THE FACE! Because thats what you did.

Again. Nonsense. The problem here is you think titans are biased. I am sure they are trying to be impartial but as humans I doubt people can truly be unbiased. That is why you get enough people to balance things out. But if you are accusing the developer of this, I don't know what to say other than why are you even playing this game if you can't trust the person who is working to make the game better by providing more contents?

It is sad to see people go but they've made their choice and only thing as those who are remaining with the game can do is accept their decisions and hope to see them again when things settle down.

Like you said, things are not black and white. Alex was neither too white nor too black. He was just a player like everyone else who loved the game a bit too much.