Huge lose of believers due to weekly Temples and Shrines Upkeep

[T0mislav]

I noticed that in regions where shrines Drew on Global Treasury after each weekly Temples and Shrines Upkeep there is huge lose of believers.
Global Treasury of the order has more then enaugh gold to cower those expenses!
So I do not understand why is it happening... Is it a bug?

My charracter's oratory skills are at max with expert tutor (80%).
I came to the point where my charracter can weekly convert aproximately the same number of believers as they are lost on the end of the week after Temples and Shrines Upkeep.

Can someone give me formula about how Contributions of believers are calculated?

[T0mislav]

This is today report of "Temples and Shrines upkeep" of order my charracter is member of:

It is visible from the reprot that 10 gold is "Drew on Global Treasury", while Global Treasury contains 66 gold.

The region my charracter is preaching in is 1st on the list that have "Drew on Global Treasury" - there are 4 shrines in the region that cost 8 gold for upkeep. Region contributes with 6 gold and Drew 2 gold on global treasury that has 66 gold.

Yesterday there was almost 5800 belevers in the region while immediately after "Temples and Shrines upkeep" is calculated number of believers in the region dropped to 4900 - that is lost of almost 900 believers.

Why is it happening when global treasury can cower drew?

[Anaris]

Because peasants are always skeptical when you can't cover your expenses out of local funds.

This is an incentive to keep temples with well-supplied treasuries

[T0mislav]

If

This is an incentive to keep temples with well-supplied treasuries

then why it affect shrines? And if it is made to affect shrines as well, then why there is no option to deposit gold in shrine treasury analogously to option to deposite gold in temple treasury.

This way shrines are practically long termly useless while they cost tones of gold to be constructed...

[Penchant]

If  then why it affect shrines? And if it is made to affect shrines as well, then why there is no option to deposit gold in shrine treasury analogously to option to deposite gold in temple treasury.

This way shrines are practically long termly useless while they cost tones of gold to be constructed...

Useless is an exaggeration but less useful is true.

Because peasants are always skeptical when you can't cover your expenses out of local funds.

This is an incentive to keep temples with well-supplied treasuries

Hidden incentive programs generally don't work. This is certainly something worth making easyish to find as an elder or priest.

[T0mislav]

I said that shrines are this way long termly useless and I can elaborate why to say "useless" is not exaggeration.

At lower levels of shrines (levels 1 and 2) I would agree with you that they are only "less useful".
But with higher levels of shrines you get to sittuation where you can not make enaugh followers to make enaugh contributions to pay upkeep because you can not make enaugh followers in one week for it to accomplish and at one point (shrine level 3-4) you come to dead point where you weekly lose aproximately the same number of followers duo to negative balance and drew on global treasury as you can get by preaching.

At that point:
- If you continue preaching you will after each weekly "Temples and Shrines Upkeep" be at aproximately the same number of followers.
- If you stop preaching, number of followers will drop duo to negative balance and drew on global treasury to numbers that level 2 shrine can support.

So, practically, all shrines above level 2, regardless their construction cost tones of gold, are completely USELESS - NOT LESS USEFUL.

This could be fixed by:
- Eliminating lose of believers duo to negative balance and drew on global treasury for shrines, or
- Creating "Shrine Treasury" analogously to "Temple Treasury".


Problem could be solved also by:
- Making priest can consturuct tepmles as well instead priests can only upgrade existing temples of their faith while only local Lords can construct temples (but here we come to second problem - local Lords can construct temples of their faith only), or
- Making option that local Lords can construct one temple of each faith they chose to construct (not only of their own faith).
These two solutions would not affect that Shrines above level 2 are useless, but they would solve the problem of dead point in preaching caused by lose of believers duo to negative balance and drew on global treasury.

[Anaris]

Shrines serve a different purpose than temples.

Temples convert the peasants in the region they're in. Shrines get the peasants in their region excited about their religion, so they'll go and convert peasants in other regions.

[Penchant]

Shrines serve a different purpose than temples.

Temples convert the peasants in the region they're in. Shrines get the peasants in their region excited about their religion, so they'll go and convert peasants in other regions.

None of this in game and I am rather sure its not on the wiki help page either.

@T0mislav

Shrines are likely not a great idea beyond lvl  2 without a temple, albeit Anaris's news may change that some, but an obvious fix for this is just make a temple in the region. No I don't believe the dev team has to make everything easy for you and let you make a temple everywhere as a priest instead of needing lords. Tough, this is a social game, you will have to actually deal with people.

[T0mislav]

No I don't believe the dev team has to make everything easy for you and let you make a temple everywhere as a priest instead of needing lords. Tough, this is a social game, you will have to actually deal with people.

Presently region Lord can construct only temple of his own faith.
In one region can be temples of different religions only if region change Lord or if Lord change faith.

Arguments against implementing option which will allow priests to construct temples are understandable.
Still, it is serious problem that priests can not increse number of followers over the number that can supply 2 shrines even in regions where priests are granted to preach by the region Lord and just because region Lord is follower of different religion or is not believer at all, duo to region Lord presently do not have option to construct temple for religion he is not following.

This problem can be easily solved:
- by adding option to region Lord so when he uses "build temple" option, he also can chose "of which faith the temple will be" or
- by implementing "Shrine Treasury" analogously to "Temple Treasury"

[Indirik]

We will not add the option to build temples of other faiths. We are not supportive of the religious tolerance that implies for the game atmosphere. We need less religious tolerance, not more.

As for the wiki, now that you know, go fix it. It is collaborative community documentation.

[T0mislav]

We will not add the option to build temples of other faiths. We are not supportive of the religious tolerance that implies for the game atmosphere. We need less religious tolerance, not more.

If you wish less religious tolerance, then you should create mahanism for religions to become less tolerable.
Present mechanisms are all to absolutely favorize religion of region Lord because only that religion can have temple, while because of lose of believers duo to negative balance and drew from the global treasury no other religion can get enaugh believers for priests to start takeover of religion and to use his options like "persecute heretics".

This way priest game is practically dead while priests are restricted only on preaching in regions where lords are followers of their religion and all other priest options are completely useless - they can have some use only if enemy takeover that friendly region to prevent enemy from controling it... but most of time most of priest options are completely useless - and all because no priest can significantly increse number of believers in region where he do not have temple.

By removing this big lose of believers duo to negative balance of contribution and upkeep of shrines, or by creating "Shrine Treasury"  analogously to "Temple Treasury" all priests could actually change religious structure of the region - what would definitly lead to "less religious tolerance" you mentioned.

This way, as I previously said, priest game is restricted on preaching in regions where there are temples, so there is no any need for no tolerance between religions.

[Constantine]

Present mechanisms are all to absolutely favorize religion of region Lord

Well, that... Sounds reasonable. No?
Maybe try converting said Lord into your religion. That would definitely be more fun than just building temples with zero interaction.

[T0mislav]

Well... actually no.

Priest has options to eject non believers from their estates - even the Lord.
So, why such options exist if all mechanisms are made to create using of such options:
- using such options need enaugh believers
- securing enaugh believers can be done by building tempes and/or building shrines
- temple can be constructed only by region Lord, while shrines can be constructed by priest
- game mechanisms are making shrines completely useless

This way in practice game mechanisms secured that it is not possible to get enaugh believers to use most of options that priest has.
So, preast game practically turns into preaching with game mechanisms that are securing that region will always have major religion of its Lord

Indrik said: "We need less religious tolerance, not more."
With game mechanisms that are securing which religion will have absolute dominance in some region (that is religion which the region Lord is following) there is no need for "less religion tolerance".  There is no need for priests to fight (by preaching) for followers, so there is no need for them to grow intolerance duo to constant arguing and fighting for zones of influence when their zones of influence are already detetermined by region Lords.

Shortly to say, priest game is heavily crippled by game mechanisms that are making shrines completely useless, that are making most of priest actions completely useless.
Game mechansims are supporting state religion, so in practice religion of region Lords is almost certainly determined with the realm the region Lord is member of.
All stated is restricting the priest game mostly on preaching in regions where region Lords are follower of the faith what is mostly inside the realm borders (or within the borders of some alliance or federation).

[Indirik]

I've thought about this quite a bit, and am really not sure what to say. I can't really follow a lot of your arguments, and disagree with many of them.

However, it seems to me like the biggest disconnect here is that you are trying to use the religion itself as some kind of offensive weapon. Or perhaps to expand your religion by force, but without the support of any government or military forces. That's really not how it was intended to be used. You are correct in that if a religion has a lord and a big temple in a region, and your religion has none, that you will have a hard time getting a foothold there. This is by design. The established religion has all the cards. Do you expect to just be able to walk in and preach for a few days and kick them out? You will need to do a lot more than that.

Game mechanics do not support state religions. You could say they support the established religion, or perhaps the religion of the lord. I don't see how that is unreasonable. If some random priest could walk in, preach for a week, build a temple, and kick out the lord, that would be completely unacceptable. Religion needs options, but not unbalancing ones.

Intolerance doesn't just mean game mechanics intolerance. (Although you do have some of those methods available.) Religion, more than any other game system, needs popular support from the nobility. You need to grow and expand by capturing the loyalty of nobles. Win over the lord. If he won't join you, then go to his neighbors and win them. If they don't want you either, then maybe you need some troops yo help you expand by force. And if no one wants to help you at all, then I guess you're just stuck. You can't be a one-man army of religious aggression.

[T0mislav]

I wanted to point here that SHRINES are not solved well by the geme machine.
Temples are, but shrines are not.

Using the same algorithm for shrines and tempes for applying lose of believers after weekly "Temples and Shrines Upkeep" if they drew on global treasury is making SHRINES useless.

I only wanted to point that
- or there should be created different agorithm for SHRINES that would allow them to drew on global treasury without lose of believers or at least with significantly rediced lose,
- or there should be created "Shrine Treasury" analogously to "Temple Treasury".

I just talked about possibilities (like kicking someone from the estate), but my primary objection was on priest's TOTL INABILITY to increse number of followers in regions without temple of his faith.

Were are not talking here about several days of preaching... My charracter is preaching in the region in his own realm where the Lord is follower of other faith since around Easter - that is 3 months. He was able to convert about 800 believers per week, so he got to number of 5000 believers in about 6 weeks, but since then he got to dead point because he each week convert about 800 believers getting to number about 5800 and after "Temples and Shrines Upkeep" he lose about 800 believers returning him back to 5000 - that is happening for last month and a half. I attempted to not preach this week just to see what will happen and the number of believers dropped to about 4300.

I completely agree with you that it would not be good that priest can come and in several days convert entire region, but don't you agree that it is a little bit frustrating that game mechanisms are set to MAKE IMPOSSIBLE
a) to increse believers over number that support shrine level 3
b) to preserve believers over number that support shrine level 2

It is totaly frustrating that after my charracter spent about 1000 gold on constructing shrines till level 4 he is after 3 months of preeching at the same point (with the same number of believers) where he was after month and a half of preaching, and if he stop preaching number of followers will in time go down to point where he was after month of preaching.

What is the most frustrating and what is the point of this post is:
If my charracter continue preaching in this region indefinitely, duo to present game mechanisms nothing will EVER change - there will NEVER (not in several days but NEVER) be any progress - and he will stick at the dead point where he is now having 5000 (the region has about 16000 peasants) believers afrer each weekly "Temples and Shrines Upkeep".