Spying (was: Re: An Open Letter to the BM Community)

[Blue Star]

Remember when realms didn't care and talked about there plan openly and did it and still steamrolled ^_^ confidence in the people/char of the realm will prevail!

Scouting reports win the day!

[LilWolf]

Remember when realms didn't care and talked about there plan openly and did it and still steamrolled ^_^ confidence in the people/char of the realm will prevail!

I remember that. I also remember the big spy incidents that ruined it for everyone. It did considerable damage to the game and the team spirit of it. And it continues to affect the game in negative ways.

So don't spy. It hurts the game.

[Indirik]

I remember that. I also remember the big spy incidents that ruined it for everyone. It did considerable damage to the game and the team spirit of it. And it continues to affect the game in negative ways.

So don't spy. It hurts the game.

* Indirik agrees.

[Anaris]

I remember that. I also remember the big spy incidents that ruined it for everyone. It did considerable damage to the game and the team spirit of it. And it continues to affect the game in negative ways.

So don't spy. It hurts the game.

My name is Delvin Anaris, and I support this message.

[Mac Tir]

Agreed. Besides, there's no sensible way where a character would get information from a player based forum. Just because a player knows something doesn't mean that their character would.

[Zakilevo]

Agreed. Besides, there's no sensible way where a character would get information from a player based forum. Just because a player knows something doesn't mean that their character would.

This is one of those things people just cannot separate.

[Eirikr]

Just to clarify, are we talking OOC spying or all spying?

[vonGenf]

Just to clarify, are we talking OOC spying or all spying?

OOC spying is cheating.

IC spying for OOC reasons is, mostly, abuse.

IC spying for IC reasons is legal, but it remains true that too much of it is not good for the atmosphere.

[Anaris]

OOC spying is cheating.

Unfortunately, as such a rule would be entirely unenforceable, no such rule exists.

Using information obtained through out-of-character means, for whatever in-character purposes, is not against the rules of the game.

It is, however, highly undesirable, and we hope that players will police such abuses. Since this includes refusing to accept information obtained through OOC spying, it's something of an uphill battle.

[Eirikr]

I meant which are we discussing in this specific case? I'm with you on the two OOC versions, but I'm not sure I follow with the IC-IC case. Unless it's two characters of a single player "passing" information back and forth (and therefore untraceable), it's another way to help keep things moving. I'd concede that game mechanics currently make spying a little rigged, but if there was a way to forcibly remove timestamps and other dead giveaways, I think it'd be completely fine.

[Mac Tir]

The spying in general detracts from the team spirit of the game. We're having a debate in taselak atm over whether or not to include the average noble in discussion of military strategy due to fear of spying. The answer to that is to discuss it in a small circle of trusted individuals. The problem with that is it leaves the majority of the realm outside the circle, not being included or really having any fun.

[Eirikr]

The spying in general detracts from the team spirit of the game. We're having a debate in taselak atm over whether or not to include the average noble in discussion of military strategy due to fear of spying. The answer to that is to discuss it in a small circle of trusted individuals. The problem with that is it leaves the majority of the realm outside the circle, not being included or really having any fun.

I can't really put it in words, but I feel like that's more of an excuse for laziness on the part of leadership. It's a leader's job to build up team spirit, which also builds loyalty, and makes it easier to find spies just by family relations. You could also speak in more general terms, such as "we're so much better than so-and-so, we'll take their capital right out of their hands!" No, people don't necessarily get involved in the planning that way, but they do feel a part of the team.

I'm sure we could debate it endlessly once I find my words, but something feels wrong about the extreme negativity for IC-IC spying.

[Mac Tir]

I'm sure we could debate it endlessly once I find my words, but something feels wrong about the extreme negativity for IC-IC spying.

Under normal circumstance I might agree with you. But at the moment when the biggest issue as has been stated further up in here is the ''us vs them'' mentality, I can't see spying doing anything to particularly alleviate that issue, and if anything exacerbate it. As for the leadership issue, I agree with you there as well. It is definitely the leader's job to foster team spirit, but from my brief experience it seems like something that the majority of them are failing at. Could be just from where my chars are, but that's the impression I get.

[Deytheur]

My name is Delvin Anaris, and I support this message.

* Deytheur agrees

The problem with spying is that there is so little risk for the individual doing it and yet it has huge effects on everyone else in the realm.

[Lorgan]

I'm with Eirikr on this. Boring realms are a breeding ground for spies. Spies are just nobles looking to earn favour outside their realm, as they fail to get it inside.
I don't necessarily like spying but I believe it to be a byproduct of a failing leadership. If you can't bind your nobles to you as leaders, you fail. It's as simple as that. And distrusting them will only increase the likelihood of them turning on you.

Of course some people thrive on spying or are driven to it by IC actions and don't need a boring and distrustful realm to turn spy, but those people are rare, and negligible, or identifiable. If you play BM in fear of those few odd apples, you're depriving the majority of tasty apples the fun they came to get out of this game.

In other words: the fault for spying lies with uninspired leadership that fails to keep it's nobles happy. And that's not just about information, it's about gold and power and, most importantly, fun too.