Ease buying regions a little

[Bedwyr]

btw, such a hostile tone in something which is aimed to be discussion, cuts any will to initiate discussion, present different idea, and sadly resembles similar causes of silence in game.

Stue, the problem is that Tom has made his opinion on colonization and starting new realms very, very clear.  I remember the same statements that Tim and Rob do, and there was no wiggle room in them.

Neither Tim nor Peter nor Rob nor I nor anyone else on the dev team can overrule Tom, and while Tom has been known to change his mind sometimes (this forum being one of them), it only happens rarely and never happens if you beat on him about it.

So, it is not a hostile attempt to silence discussion.  It's a repeated attempt to let you know that it does not, in point of fact, matter what reasoning you can bring to the table because Tom's position is clear.  Regardless of whether anyone on the dev team agrees with you or not, Tom's word is final, and he's given a statement on this subject.

[Jens Namtrah]

Stue, the problem is that Tom has made his opinion on colonization and starting new realms very, very clear.  I remember the same statements that Tim and Rob do, and there was no wiggle room in them.

I really don't understand where you are coming from on this.

If you enter a region that has no lord, and your family has enough wealth, you get the options "Buy a claim" and "Buy region"

If you buy the region, you become its lord. If the region is a city, you become its duke.

If you become a Duke, you have the option to secede. If you secede, you become the Ruler of a new realm.

All of this is according to the game rules. All of this was DESIGNED AND CODED BY TOM.

The price is based on population; I don't know what the criteria are for chance of success.

All Stue is asking, as you can see by the title to this thread, is that the game "Ease buying regions a little". His reason is, as he stated several times, because he would like to break away from the "four friends plan it out OOC first" mold of new realms and make it easier for any Tom, Dick or Harry (with enough wealth) to venture out and give it a shot.

No new Game Mechanics. No new Rules. No new results. Just lower the price a little and increase the chance of success.

He wants you to tweak a couple of numbers, so that more people can do what only a few older players are able to do now .

(Did I completely misunderstand you, Stue?)

[Anaris]

No new Game Mechanics. No new Rules. No new results. Just lower the price a little and increase the chance of success.

He wants you to tweak a couple of numbers, so that more people can do what only a few older players are able to do now .

No, he wants to be able to do it in rogue regions.

[Bedwyr]

He wants you to tweak a couple of numbers, so that more people can do what only a few older players are able to do now .

(Did I completely misunderstand you, Stue?)

The numbers aren't a problem, and discussion on how much it costs and the like is perfectly fine.  The problem is that currently you cannot buy rogue regions, and Tom has stated that this is very much intentional, and we cannot overrule him on that, even if we wanted to.

I personally think different risk levels with corresponding costs might be nice.  High risk, low cost vs low risk high cost buying would make an interesting dynamic and give people without as much gold a shot while still giving people with a lot of gold to burn a benefit.

[Jens Namtrah]

  The problem is that currently you cannot buy rogue regions

ah, well now we are all talking about the same thing :-) i didn't know you couldn't buy rouges.

I wonder where all this "we must be a team" and "no one-man realms" came into it, if that was actual issue :-P

[songqu88@gmail.com]

There's nothing specific against one-man teams, though it has been consistently said that being a rogue or an outlaw or anything of that nature should be the most undesirable status.

In the case of "we must be a team", there is not necessarily a "must", but in case most of us have forgotten or never bothered to read the BM frontpage...

"BattleMaster is a team-oriented browsergame merging strategy and roleplaying."

Woah, that's even the first line! Later we have...

"Some key points that make BattleMaster different from most other games, both browser-based and not:

* you are a member of a team from the start, and don't have to start out on your own."

Man, the frontpage cites the word "team" twice. That's actually something, considering "low-fantasy", and "middle ages" are mentioned only once, and "nobles" is also mentioned twice.

[Jens Namtrah]

there are different ways of working on a team, and many different definitions of what a team is.

when you can clarify those two items to everyone's satisfaction, we can continue this discussion. perhaps in a different thread?

(Aside: no one was ever arguing for one-man teams. this was simply another way of starting a realm, where one person purchases the region and then others join him, rather than all swearing to the region's duke and then breaking away.

this whole one-man team thing was a complete strawman. Indirik said he thought it would be boring. I think that's nonsense, that you would still have loads of interaction with others in the game. In either case, a one-man realm - which has happened in the past on Atamara, and perhaps elsewhere - rarely lasts long enough or is important enough to add special restrictions just to avoid.)

[Jens Namtrah]

Then find a way to do it with a CTO.

not to beat a dead horse here, but - you only need one person to run a CTO, don't you? A takeover is run by a single large unit  - other units simply help it along.

I'm not sure on the mechanics, but I thought the region automatically became a new realm, called "colony of Realm X" and the TO unit's leader became the new ruler.

other than being a bit more challenging because of monsters, how is this different from simply buying the region?

I realize the point is moot, but I would like to understand the mechanics and thinking behind this all.

[Stue (DC)]

Bedwyr, yes you summarized the issue in more clear point, while other dev team members maybe offered a little wider explanations, so i was not aware that tom has firm opinion about that issue.

yes, anaris and indirik indeed mentioned that d-list archives contain that dicscussion already, but though i attend that least for about year and a half, i cannot compete them in such knowledge.

maybe one fixed post on this forum would help, reminder on things that are "carved in stone", that way new discussions which are not desired could be referred to such post.

yes, jens summarized what i was thinking about, but it seems i was not aware that buying rouge regions makes such large difference in terms of previous discussions.

i still did not see argumentation what should be difference, but do not want to drag discussion if it creates ill-thoughts.

once more, i would just mention - mnot more than week ago i witnessed one-man attempt of colony to, so it does happen, right now, it is not prevented by current mechanics more than this new eventual tweak would prevent it, and it has even less rp-ing background that simple buying regions would have, it simply leaves very bad taste within game world.

not to mention few colony to's i have seen at times that did not have absolutely any rp-ing background, artificial to the bones, apparently based solely on ooc agreement, and at least one of such realms still exist.

as somebody mentioned in this thread - the greatest value is gaining friends in-game, but currently there is less and less of that as many simply found easier way. in subtle relationship there are no easy ways to conduct "police-work" for player's fairness, but at least the most blatant cases should be dealt with, which is, very clearly, not the case.

imagine basketball game where all players mutual agree to carry have load on their backpack and play the game that way (such backpack would be what our rp binding is). how could it look if someone jump in without such backpack and enjoys using such large advantage and there is no way he could be penalized?

now and than i tried to conduct friendly conversation with ooc-gangers, trying to explain to them how unfair such behavior is, and that large advantage some gain that way does not force them to ever learn the game, but as a rule such guys are rather autistic,  you cannot "breach" into their conversation for the moment.

this is extremely much worse for the game than any occasional single-man attempt by some i-c player, but that is probably another subject.

why i am mentioning at all within this thread? beacuse i am rather frustrated how much heated discussion is developed about one tweak, while some rather extreme in-game processes are not dealt with at all.

with all respect, i think some reality check is missing here.

[Indirik]

not to beat a dead horse here, but - you only need one person to run a CTO, don't you? A takeover is run by a single large unit  - other units simply help it along.

That is correct. You can start, and possibly even finish, a CTO with a single noble, and a single unit, if it is large enough to meet the numerical requirements.

I'm not sure on the mechanics, but I thought the region automatically became a new realm, called "colony of Realm X" and the TO unit's leader became the new ruler.

In order: Yes, pretty close, and no.

• It is automatically a new realm.
• The new realm is "X Colony", as in "Morek Colony".
• It used to be that the noble that started the CTO became the ruler, and I think the duke as well. This is no longer the case. It actually changed a couple years ago. When a CTO starts, a referendum starts in the parent realm. Any noble actually present in the region in which the CTO occurs when the referendum runs can become a candidate. (The candidate restriction is a bit newer than the rest of the process.) The referendum runs until the CTO finishes or fails. The entire realm votes on who will become the ruler of the new realm. As soon as the CTO finishes, the referendum is closed, and the winner automatically becomes the new ruler. That ruler must then appoint the duke, or have him elected via referendum via the normal rules for that government type.

other than being a bit more challenging because of monsters, how is this different from simply buying the region?

• You have to be part of a realm that actually has the ability to provide troops to run the CTO. You can't leapfrog from DeadCity 1 to DeadCity 2 to DeadCity 3, spending family gold like water. (Which could easily be spread out over a series of families.)
• You need to actually have the gold on hand to recruit the troops, and pay them long enough to get to your destination.
• You need to get a big enough unit/units there past all the obstacles in your way.
• The fact that you are running around with a large unit, headed for a rogue city, gives the realm a chance to notice and stop you. And for other realms to notice and stop you as well.
• The fact that you have to have a unit and enough troops gives the parent realm some additional accountability for the creation of a colony. "We didn't know Sir Kepler McUnitless was going to do something like that" is a lot different than "We didn't know that Sir Kepler McInfantry, leading 150 troops to that rogue city, was going to try start a colony". This also means that the realm has to at least passively support your endeavor.
• CTOs have certain requirements that have to be in place before you can run them.
• Any mechanic that can be used by a single noble to create a new realm can easily be used, and seriously abused by a rich realm to do the same thing. Or worse.

Let's face it, if all it took was a single rich family to create a realm in a rogue city, there probably wouldn't be any rogue cities left anymore in which to run CTOs. And part of the unique challenge of Dwilight is the vast rogue expanses, and the struggle of pacifying them.

[Indirik]

as somebody mentioned in this thread - the greatest value is gaining friends in-game, but currently there is less and less of that as many simply found easier way. in subtle relationship there are no easy ways to conduct "police-work" for player's fairness, but at least the most blatant cases should be dealt with, which is, very clearly, not the case.

why i am mentioning at all within this thread? beacuse i am rather frustrated how much heated discussion is developed about one tweak, while some rather extreme in-game processes are not dealt with at all.

If you think that there are abuses occurring within the game, then report them to the Titans. But be aware that there may be circumstances about which you are unaware that make the situation not what it appears to be. Just because you report something does not mean it will turn out to be what you think it is.