Author Topic: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency  (Read 22111 times)

Buffalkill

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Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Topic Start: August 17, 2014, 02:27:50 AM »
I've said it many times that the low density is mainly due to the fundamental economics of the game. The most powerful, stable, & prolific realms always have a ratio close to 1:1 because that's how you optimize your resources.


Fewer nobles per region = more gold.


The glacier plan was an attempt to force higher density instead of changing the economics, so density is gravitating back to the natural rate. Far from being a success, the glacier made things worse because it drove players away and it didn't accomplish its intended objective.


DateNoblesRegionsDensity
5 May 20133832381.61
1 March 20142811332.11
16 August 20142051331.54





http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/File:Density_graph_2014-08-16.png

Jens Namtrah

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #1: August 17, 2014, 02:37:51 AM »
except that's not true.

a region lord can't get his productivity above 76% (roughly) without knights on the other estates, and can't maximize his taxes on the other estates if they are empty.

the statement that 1:1 is optimized is false.

EDIT: actually, looking at my lordship, it doesn't seem to matter on maximizing taxes of the other estates whether they are occupied or not. Efficiency, however, needs that.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 02:40:59 AM by Miskel Hemmings »

Buffalkill

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #2: August 17, 2014, 02:59:57 AM »
except that's not true.

a region lord can't get his productivity above 76% (roughly) without knights on the other estates, and can't maximize his taxes on the other estates if they are empty.

the statement that 1:1 is optimized is false.

EDIT: actually, looking at my lordship, it doesn't seem to matter on maximizing taxes of the other estates whether they are occupied or not. Efficiency, however, needs that.
I don't think that's correct. For a large realm like Morek, having lots of knights is of little benefit. Knights just cut into their lord's, duke's and ruler's tax revenue, giving them less gold with which to hire militia, build workshops, repair fortresses, etc. etc.

Jens Namtrah

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #3: August 17, 2014, 03:23:34 AM »
I don't think that's correct. For a large realm like Morek, having lots of knights is of little benefit. Knights just cut into their lord's, duke's and ruler's tax revenue, giving them less gold with which to hire militia, build workshops, repair fortresses, etc. etc.

no, I'm sorry - that's simply not how the game mechanics work. Are you a lord anywhere? look at your estates page

GundamMerc

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #4: August 17, 2014, 03:28:38 AM »
no, I'm sorry - that's simply not how the game mechanics work. Are you a lord anywhere? look at your estates page

Yes it is. You seem to be confusing gold for lords with gold total. In order to extract the maximum amount of gold from a region for the realm as a whole, that requires knights. However, if we are just talking about the lords needs, knights are at best redundant and at worst a drag in finances, especially for rural lords.

Jens Namtrah

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #5: August 17, 2014, 03:38:58 AM »
Yes it is. You seem to be confusing gold for lords with gold total. In order to extract the maximum amount of gold from a region for the realm as a whole, that requires knights. However, if we are just talking about the lords needs, knights are at best redundant and at worst a drag in finances, especially for rural lords.

no, this is incorrect.

A lord cannot have more than 50% of the estates, NO MATTER HOW MANY KNIGHTS. They cannot tax higher than 50%,  REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A KNIGHT.

BUT... their efficiency - and so their own gold - cannot be maximized without knights in the other estates.

So, a knight NEVER DRAWS GOLD AWAY FROM THE LORD, but CAN increase it.

That's the whole design behind the new estate system.

GundamMerc

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #6: August 17, 2014, 03:41:09 AM »
no, this is incorrect.

A lord cannot have more than 50% of the estates, NO MATTER HOW MANY KNIGHTS. They cannot tax higher than 50%,  REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A KNIGHT.

BUT... their efficiency - and so their own gold - cannot be maximized without knights in the other estates.

So, a knight NEVER DRAWS GOLD AWAY FROM THE LORD, but CAN increase it.

That's the whole design behind the new estate system.

Honestly, whether or not you're right, it isn't what this thread is about.

Buffalkill

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #7: August 17, 2014, 04:12:22 AM »
no, this is incorrect.

A lord cannot have more than 50% of the estates, NO MATTER HOW MANY KNIGHTS. They cannot tax higher than 50%,  REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A KNIGHT.

BUT... their efficiency - and so their own gold - cannot be maximized without knights in the other estates.

So, a knight NEVER DRAWS GOLD AWAY FROM THE LORD, but CAN increase it.

That's the whole design behind the new estate system.
Efficiency of the estates is determined mostly by their size, not by whether or not they're occupied.

Jens Namtrah

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #8: August 17, 2014, 04:36:11 AM »
Efficiency of the estates is determined mostly by their size, not by whether or not they're occupied.

<REMOVE BECAUSE WRONG>

You can actually read how it works here:

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Estates

EDIT: reading this, there is one thing I've noticed - wildlands that are small enough still have 100% efficiency. so it seems to not matter if there is a knight or not, but it never hurts the lord
« Last Edit: August 17, 2014, 04:58:13 AM by Miskel Hemmings »

Indirik

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #9: August 17, 2014, 05:23:19 AM »
As a lord, i never cared whether i was making the most gold i could personally. That's pretty pointless. Theres enough gold to go around that keeping as much of it to yourself as possible is just stupid. More estates brings you more knights, and more knights brings more fun.
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Jens Namtrah

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #10: August 17, 2014, 05:37:11 AM »
As a lord, i never cared whether i was making the most gold i could personally. That's pretty pointless. Theres enough gold to go around that keeping as much of it to yourself as possible is just stupid. More estates brings you more knights, and more knights brings more fun.

which takes us full circle to our original problem... there's no knights, only lords & vacancies

Buffalkill

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #11: August 17, 2014, 02:51:44 PM »
As a lord, i never cared whether i was making the most gold i could personally. That's pretty pointless. Theres enough gold to go around that keeping as much of it to yourself as possible is just stupid. More estates brings you more knights, and more knights brings more fun.
I agree with you, I also welcome knights in my regions in the spirit of the game and I'm sure many others do too. My point is that the economics of the game favour a low density rate.


which takes us full circle to our original problem... there's no knights, only lords & vacancies
Which takes me to my original point, that corralling the characters on one side of the continent doesn't address the underlying economic flaw that puts high-density realms at a disadvantage.

Buffalkill

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #12: August 17, 2014, 03:05:13 PM »
RealmRegionsNoblesDensity
Morek35220.63
Astrum18181.00
Swordfell15221.47
Fissoa20341.70
Luria Nova18502.78
D'Hara8273.38
Barca4153.75
Asylon3175.67

Chenier

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #13: August 17, 2014, 06:18:01 PM »
Those figures are quite interesting. It looks like Astrum and Swordfell have stayed roughly the same, like Luria, Fissoa and D'hara have seen increases, like Asylon, Barca and Morek have seen big drops and obviously Niselur and Corsanctum no longer exist.

So what I see there is basically the western realms losing a large number of nobles, including the surviving ones, which is to be expected with realms which have lost their homelands, but this in turn has driven an increase in nobles for the eastern realms with the exception of Morek which is managing to buck the trend by shedding nobles rapidly - almost certainly due to reasons unique to the atmosphere in that realm.

Which means that overall the closing of western Dwilight has been a partial success and a partial failure. On the one hand, it has driven an increase in noble density in the south (I suspect the north would have seen this decline pretty much no matter what happened) but it has also lead to a large fall in total noble numbers as well - which is not surprising considering how demoralising this must have been for nobles in the realms hit by monsters.

It'd be interesting to see what the numbers are like for other continents. I get the impression from the limited perspective of my characters that it's worked far better on EC than FEI and I have no idea what's happened in AT.

D'Hara's "growth" (in quotation marks, because it only increased in the first block, then remained constant for all of the rest) seemed pretty much sustained by new characters being created while older characters phase out. I did not witness any significant immigration there, if any immigration at all.

Also, as for the appeal of knights and new regions, I'd say it varies on the realms' geography. A city-wealthy realm that expands is likely to lose raw income, because if a knight moves from a city estate and moves to a rural lordship, the total output, efficiency considered, is very likely to be less gold. On the other hand, many people are likely to prefer a lordship even if their income drops a little for it, and more regions does mean for capacity for infrastructure (such as RCs and thus recruitment capacity), increased food security and a few other perks.
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Jens Namtrah

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Re: Knight/Region Density/Efficiency
« Reply #14: August 18, 2014, 12:29:31 AM »


Which takes me to my original point, that corralling the characters on one side of the continent doesn't address the underlying economic flaw that puts high-density realms at a disadvantage.

Why do you insist on repeating this, when we've demonstrated to you that it is factually incorrect?

Go find a new hypothesis, please